Does lack of sleep cause Diabetes or does Diabetes cause lack of sleep?

Kurt Codean

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Aug 15, 2015
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Hello all, sometimes I wonder if I have diabetes or pre-diabetic symptoms. Usually I worry about this when I have sleepless nights like yesterday. I wasn't able to get to sleep all night, and have been trying to take a nap during the day but can't seem to drift off into la la land. So I've been up for over 24 hours and usually when I'm up this long my body feels really weak, groggy, and just a feeling of poor health in general. I think I am a bit overweight too, and I have been drinking a lot of Soda and sweet juices lately. Also I have been smoking for the past few months. I'm going to try to quit smoking when I finish the rest of my pack today, and hopefully once I quit smoking, I will start to eat and drink more sensibly. But I have these episodes of insomnia quite often and I wonder if this could be a sign of diabetes? When I do sleep well I don't worry about it because I feel okay but when I go a whole night without sleeping I start to behave like a hypochondriac, especially with thoughts of diabetes, because of my weight and lifestyle right now. I'm not super obese or anything, but I could stand to lose about 20 pounds. I don't know why I have trouble sleeping but it's been a reoccurring problem for me for quite a while now as I have mentioned more than once on this message forum. I guess the only way to know for sure is to see a doctor and have him check my blood sugar levels. The last time I had blood work done was back in 2013 or 2014 and there wasn't anything abnormal when the results came in. I think I will bring this up when I see my doctor next time, but I'm not sure if I should make a separate appointment with a general practitioner to check this because my next doctor appointment is with my pain management doctor, and I usually spend 5 minutes in his office and just get refills for my scripts. And he's usually pretty busy so I don't know If I should ask that doctor about it unless there aren't that many people in his office next time I go. 

 
I know this is a old thread but someone can benefet from it.Ask him for a HGBA1C and yes diabetes can cause a myriad of signs and symptoms also the ones you described.

 
Like Caver said an A1C will tell you for sure if you have diabetes. The main symptoms of it are having to pee all the time, no matter how much you drink- your still thristy, blurry vision, vomiting, and weight loss. You can purchase a glucose meter from Walmart for cheap. At midnight stop eating and drinking. Then at 8-9 am check your blood sugar. If its 135 or above- see a doctor asap. 

 
I'm borderline diabetic and most of the time I can keep my blood sugar under control with a couple types of pills.

My tip is for anyone who is diabetic to watch out if they are prescribed Prednisone. It caused my blood sugar  to skyrocket and had all of the symptoms @MEOWWWW described and it was just crazy.

I had to pee every 15 minutes and that is a difficult side effect to live with. I found myself peeing by the side of the road and behind businesses. I know that sounds disgusting, but I absolutely could not hold it. So Prednisone + diabetes = adult diapers.

Never want that experience again but Prednisone is a must for treating certain ailments such as asthma. It just has a lot of side affects and high blood sugar is a big one.

 
I'm borderline diabetic and most of the time I can keep my blood sugar under control with a couple types of pills.

My tip is for anyone who is diabetic to watch out if they are prescribed Prednisone. It caused my blood sugar  to skyrocket and had all of the symptoms @MEOWWWW described and it was just crazy.

I had to pee every 15 minutes and that is a difficult side effect to live with. I found myself peeing by the side of the road and behind businesses. I know that sounds disgusting, but I absolutely could not hold it. So Prednisone + diabetes = adult diapers.

Never want that experience again but Prednisone is a must for treating certain ailments such as asthma. It just has a lot of side affects and high blood sugar is a big one.
I agrrr with you on the Presdnisone/ steriods. I'm a type 1 diabetic. It came out of no where when I was 20 years old. I have to take around 6 insulin shots per day. I had to get steroid shots while I was in labor with my son. My blood sugar was 500+ for two days after I was given the injection. I couldn't figure out why it was so high; especially since I had barley ate. My endocrinologist told me that it was due to the steroid shots. At the time- I had been diagnosed with diabetes for over 10 years and I never knew that steroids would cause haywire blood sugar. I wish that I would have known ahead of time. 

 
Well this is certainly good Information for Me to remember... as my Dr. says I'm fine right now but Diabetes is a complicated Disease. 

 
I'm borderline diabetic and most of the time I can keep my blood sugar under control with a couple types of pills.

My tip is for anyone who is diabetic to watch out if they are prescribed Prednisone. It caused my blood sugar  to skyrocket and had all of the symptoms @MEOWWWW described and it was just crazy.

I had to pee every 15 minutes and that is a difficult side effect to live with. I found myself peeing by the side of the road and behind businesses. I know that sounds disgusting, but I absolutely could not hold it. So Prednisone + diabetes = adult diapers.

Never want that experience again but Prednisone is a must for treating certain ailments such as asthma. It just has a lot of side affects and high blood sugar is a big one.
Weird, never heard the prednisone/blood sugar link. 2 years ago I had one high a1c result and a year later 1 borderline result. After which the doc has me taking pills and monitoring my BG. I did have a powerpack of prednisone to reduce swelling/pain in joints at some point near the really high test point. I'll need to look back at records because my 2x daily test isn't bad, rarely over 100.

 
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The pharmacy has pee sticks to check your blood sugar,    Their not the most accurate but its some-wear to start.  Either way eating better and living a active life style never hurts.

 
I am no doctor, nor diabetic, however I am at-risk for diabetes. My type of diabetes would be the type caused by taking in too much sugar. It seems to me as though, if you have this same type of diabetes, the insomnia could be caused by the sugar which also causes the diabetes. So, imo, both

 
I am no doctor, nor diabetic, however I am at-risk for diabetes. My type of diabetes would be the type caused by taking in too much sugar. It seems to me as though, if you have this same type of diabetes, the insomnia could be caused by the sugar which also causes the diabetes. So, imo, both
The consequence of diabetes mellitus is sugar metabolism derangement. This consequence often gets confused with the cause. The cause of T2DM, formerly late onset diabetes or sugar diabetes, is too much fat. Yes, you read corrctly. A diet high in fat.

Our bodies love glucose. The brain almost uses nothing else; red blood cells use nothing else (that 5 litres or quarts of blood cells in serum that can't survive on anything else); and muscles love sugar too (store a bunch of it as glycogen). Too much glucose wreaks havoc, but the body burns through a LOT of glucose just at rest.

Fat, on the other hand, is like long-term energy storage. So when your body gets too much of it, it doesn't know what to do with it but stack it. The problem comes when it starts stacking it around organs. Now that fat starts to gum up the works. And you might have guessed it: when glucose tries to get inside muscles and other organs, it has a hard time.

Insulin is the key that opens the door so glucose can enter cells. When fat is in the way, the pancreas has to be produce ever more insulin because it doesn't see the glucose level coming down - because the glucose cannot get into the cell because fat is blocking it. Eventually, the pancreas starts failing because it cannot sustain that level of insulin production. This is when diabetes sets in.

If you want to cure your diabetes, eat more healthy carbs. Yes, you read correctly. MORE carbs of the healthy variety. Well, what are healthy carbs? Whole plant foods - sweet potatoes, plantains, beans, lentils, chickpeas, fruits, brown rice, quinoa, whole grain pasta, whole wheat bread, corn, and so on.

What you want to avoid are high fat foods, which are pretty much your animal products - meat, fish, dairy, eggs.

My favorite story is of a friend who went to the ER and was diagnosed with raging diabetes with A1c at 11%. I gave him the exact same advice - more plants, little to no animals. They set him up with an endocrinologist who wasn't in a hurry - appointment was a month away. In that 1 month, he dropped his A1c to 7%. The endocrinologist was flabbergasted, and didn't want to believe it was just the diet.

Bittersweet ending: friend couldn't keep up with the diet. Too much stress he said. His A1c crept back up. But hey, at least he knows what to do. We're all adults and make our own choices.

 
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The consequence of diabetes mellitus is sugar metabolism derangement. This consequence often gets confused with the cause. The cause of T2DM, formerly late onset diabetes or sugar diabetes, is too much fat. Yes, you read corrctly. A diet high in fat.

Our bodies love glucose. The brain almost uses nothing else; red blood cells use nothing else (that 5 litres or quarts of blood cells in serum that can't survive on anything else); and muscles love sugar too (store a bunch of it as glycogen). Too much glucose wreaks havoc, but the body burns through a LOT of glucose just at rest.

Fat, on the other hand, is like long-term energy storage. So when your body gets too much of it, it doesn't know what to do with it but stack it. The problem comes when it starts stacking it around organs. Now that fat starts to gum up the works. And you might have guessed it: when glucose tries to get inside muscles and other organs, it has a hard time.

Insulin is the key that opens the door so glucose can enter cells. When fat is in the way, the pancreas has to be produce ever more insulin because it doesn't see the glucose level coming down - because the glucose cannot get into the cell because fat is blocking it. Eventually, the pancreas starts failing because it cannot sustain that level of insulin production. This is when diabetes sets in.

If you want to cure your diabetes, eat more healthy carbs. Yes, you read correctly. MORE carbs of the healthy variety. Well, what are healthy carbs? Whole plant foods - sweet potatoes, plantains, beans, lentils, chickpeas, fruits, brown rice, quinoa, whole grain pasta, whole wheat bread, corn, and so on.

What you want to avoid are high fat foods, which are pretty much your animal products - meat, fish, dairy, eggs.

My favorite story is of a friend who went to the ER and was diagnosed with raging diabetes with A1c at 11%. I gave him the exact same advice - more plants, little to no animals. They set him up with an endocrinologist who wasn't in a hurry - appointment was a month away. In that 1 month, he dropped his A1c to 7%. The endocrinologist was flabbergasted, and didn't want to believe it was just the diet.

Bittersweet ending: friend couldn't keep up with the diet. Too much stress he said. His A1c crept back up. But hey, at least he knows what to do. We're all adults and make our own choices.
So, thing is, unused sugar metabolizes into alcohols and fats. Insulin is created in the body to help metabolize or break down sugars. Eating too much sugar causes a surge in insulin levels (in a normal person), which in turn causes all the sugars in your body to break down, causing a crash. This creates a craving for more sugar, and if you cave to the crave and eat more sugar, it creates a feedback loop. This is how diabetes starts. I know this, because it's how diabetes was starting in me, and it had nothing to do with fat--I've never had a high-fat diet.

So yes, I know carbs are not the problem. Not -all- carbs. However, sugar and fat are both carbohydrates! I am no longer living on the edge of diabetes, however I eat meat during multiple meals every day. And my carb intake is a lot--I eat as much bread and rice as possible. Carbs are required for people who work out. It fills in the spaces between the strands of protein in your muscles.

This is very different from the diet I used to have. I was homeless for a while, and that's when my hypoglycemia symptoms were the worst. I ate a lot and I mean a LOT of sugars and candies because they were the cheapest thing to grab from most stores. And gas stations, etc., usually didn't sell much besides sweets. Let me just reiterate that the problem is not fat. Now is everybody's body different? Sure! However, it was during the time I was taking in a lot of sugar that I had the most problems. I had itchy skin and near-fainting spells. I could of course make the fainting spells go away by eating some sugar real quick.

The myth that fat is the unhealthy culprit, as opposed to sugar, was a big push by the sugar industry during the early 1900's to stop the decrease of sales. Of course, I'm sure eating too much fat could have similar effects. However, my uncle and I are both body-builders, and eating a LOT of fat is just part of the program. It adds mass and contributes to muscle gains. Sugar has no such properties! Taking in a lot of sugar during, before, or after a workout just (in my experience) creates a spell of exhaustion. Most likely, this is due to the very same insulin surge phenomenon I mentioned earlier in this post.

Since I got a place and started eating a diet of regular meat (no milk or pork though) and rice, a little bread here and there (in other words, lots of carbs and fats but almost no sugars), my fainting spells are gone, the itchy skin is no longer a thing, and I have a high level of energy throughout the day. Trust me bro, it's sugar that's the problem! Or don't--it's all good bro

A final thing: I'm not sure how fat reacts in people with lower metabolisms. All I know is that sugar becomes fat, and that sugar is actually much worse than fat, and that the problems I was having were caused by sugar specifically. Thanks though for trying to help, I appreciate it. c(:

 
So, thing is, unused sugar metabolizes into alcohols and fats. Insulin is created in the body to help metabolize or break down sugars. Eating too much sugar causes a surge in insulin levels (in a normal person), which in turn causes all the sugars in your body to break down, causing a crash. This creates a craving for more sugar, and if you cave to the crave and eat more sugar, it creates a feedback loop. This is how diabetes starts. I know this, because it's how diabetes was starting in me, and it had nothing to do with fat--I've never had a high-fat diet.

So yes, I know carbs are not the problem. Not -all- carbs. However, sugar and fat are both carbohydrates! I am no longer living on the edge of diabetes, however I eat meat during multiple meals every day. And my carb intake is a lot--I eat as much bread and rice as possible. Carbs are required for people who work out. It fills in the spaces between the strands of protein in your muscles.

This is very different from the diet I used to have. I was homeless for a while, and that's when my hypoglycemia symptoms were the worst. I ate a lot and I mean a LOT of sugars and candies because they were the cheapest thing to grab from most stores. And gas stations, etc., usually didn't sell much besides sweets. Let me just reiterate that the problem is not fat. Now is everybody's body different? Sure! However, it was during the time I was taking in a lot of sugar that I had the most problems. I had itchy skin and near-fainting spells. I could of course make the fainting spells go away by eating some sugar real quick.

The myth that fat is the unhealthy culprit, as opposed to sugar, was a big push by the sugar industry during the early 1900's to stop the decrease of sales. Of course, I'm sure eating too much fat could have similar effects. However, my uncle and I are both body-builders, and eating a LOT of fat is just part of the program. It adds mass and contributes to muscle gains. Sugar has no such properties! Taking in a lot of sugar during, before, or after a workout just (in my experience) creates a spell of exhaustion. Most likely, this is due to the very same insulin surge phenomenon I mentioned earlier in this post.

Since I got a place and started eating a diet of regular meat (no milk or pork though) and rice, a little bread here and there (in other words, lots of carbs and fats but almost no sugars), my fainting spells are gone, the itchy skin is no longer a thing, and I have a high level of energy throughout the day. Trust me bro, it's sugar that's the problem! Or don't--it's all good bro

A final thing: I'm not sure how fat reacts in people with lower metabolisms. All I know is that sugar becomes fat, and that sugar is actually much worse than fat, and that the problems I was having were caused by sugar specifically. Thanks though for trying to help, I appreciate it. c(:
I'm certainly not arguing that coca cola and skittles are a healthy meal, but I'll bet you anything that a kid downing soda and skittles all day will in most cases gain less weight and have fewer metabolic syndrome issues than the kid bingeing on chicken nuggets and extra cheese pizzas.

But I will agree with one thing: the sugar crashes. I made a bet with another gentleman with raging diabetes who said his sugars pretty much never drop below the 200s. He was Hispanic, so I bet him that if he could eat rice and beans for just a week (not with pork and sausage and cheese - plain rice and beans, and the rice can even be white) he'd see an improvement. He returned angry with me. He said his sugars plummeted into the 60s. I just laughed and reminded him I won the bet.

The difference between diabetics and non-diabetics is that with non-diabetics, sugars don't remain up in the 200s or go much higher for very long. They don't get used to that state. Anyone will feel like shit when used to 200s-300s and all of a sudden coming down to 80-100.

Anyhow, the choice is yours. Look up intramyocellular fat. (And calling fat a carb is like calling petroleum a carb. The classifications are there for a reason, regardless of the presense of hydrated carbons.) There's a reason vegans and vegetarians have low rates of diabetes, and similar for every plant-based group that has ever existed, whether Seventh Day Adventists in California or village-dwelling tribes in South America or Africa, or even Okinawa Japanese before US occupation introduced them to S.A.D (Standard American Diet - burgers, pizzas, fried chicken).

Most people will agree fruits and vegetables and whole grains and legumes are the healthiest things to eat, so is it any surprise a focus on plants (an abundant and exclusive source of fiber and antioxidants) has so many benefits?

 
I'm certainly not arguing that coca cola and skittles are a healthy meal, but I'll bet you anything that a kid downing soda and skittles all day will in most cases gain less weight and have fewer metabolic syndrome issues than the kid bingeing on chicken nuggets and extra cheese pizzas.

But I will agree with one thing: the sugar crashes. I made a bet with another gentleman with raging diabetes who said his sugars pretty much never drop below the 200s. He was Hispanic, so I bet him that if he could eat rice and beans for just a week (not with pork and sausage and cheese - plain rice and beans, and the rice can even be white) he'd see an improvement. He returned angry with me. He said his sugars plummeted into the 60s. I just laughed and reminded him I won the bet.

The difference between diabetics and non-diabetics is that with non-diabetics, sugars don't remain up in the 200s or go much higher for very long. They don't get used to that state. Anyone will feel like shit when used to 200s-300s and all of a sudden coming down to 80-100.

Anyhow, the choice is yours. Look up intramyocellular fat. (And calling fat a carb is like calling petroleum a carb. The classifications are there for a reason, regardless of the presense of hydrated carbons.) There's a reason vegans and vegetarians have low rates of diabetes, and similar for every plant-based group that has ever existed, whether Seventh Day Adventists in California or village-dwelling tribes in South America or Africa, or even Okinawa Japanese before US occupation introduced them to S.A.D (Standard American Diet - burgers, pizzas, fried chicken).

Most people will agree fruits and vegetables and whole grains and legumes are the healthiest things to eat, so is it any surprise a focus on plants (an abundant and exclusive source of fiber and antioxidants) has so many benefits?
I appreciate what you're doing here. It seems like you really have it in your heart and soul to try and help people. I like that, and I relate to it. Fruits are very important and of course the main source of actual healthy sugars (as opposed to the sugars we were discussing before, such as raw table sugar, which can cause diabetes). Personally, since sugar does cause diabetes, I would be squeamish about an all-fruit diet! The true key to health is not one side of the food pyramid or the other (and I am excluding candies, etc.), but a diet including enough of each different type of food to get all the nutrients that your body needs. Personally I have known some vegans in my time, and they all seemed to be not only scrawny, but a little...hardheaded as well. I remember one in particular who I befriended and defended against people in town who were short with him, until I figured out why they were. Guy thought he could save the world by converting everyone to veganism...I tried telling him that if he really wanted to change the world in that way, he should lobby for laws regarding the factory farming industry to be changed. He refused to listen and insisted that he had the answer, which did not convert me to his ways. A thought I had was that perhaps malnutrition was affecting his mind. Either that, or he was already not in a good state of mind when he chose that way of life.

What I have noticed about meats, is that most of what is sold at standard price is filled with additives which cause chest pains and other weird symptoms. To get pure meat that doesn't cause any of those problems, you have to pay extra. I do pay extra, for the highest quality, purest meat I can find, and like I said, I eat meat multiple times every day and my prediabetic symptoms have gone away. I don't think I ever would have gained weight at all, even if I did become diabetic, because my metabolism is too high. So you could be right about the weight thing with candies as opposed to fats, but of course, they all contribute (to fat and obesity).

You see though, I'm not just eating pizza and fried chicken, despite the fact that I am American. My favorite things to cook up are steaks with broccoli and rice, buffalo roast with sweet potatoes and carrots, stir fry, burritos, and yes, sometimes burgers. I also incorporate nuts into my food whenever I can and eat fruits and berries on the side as snacks. The fact that my diet has everything I need is the reason I'm now healthy. It could also help that I don't drink milk or eat pork. Pork is especially bad as far as parasites go and milk is just gross. I also barely eat any chicken. Just lamb, beef, and buffalo.

A lot of people think that eating meat is unhealthy because of the low quality meat that is predominantly sold in stores, or because it is fried, or even simply because it's pork that wasn't cooked all the way through. But there's one culture you left out, one culture that I descend from, which is the native american Cherokee tribe that hunted the buffalo and never had any significant health problems (besides syphilis god rest their souls) until the white man came. The Europeans of course lived in such close proximity to certain animals, such as the pig, that disease was rampant among them. Oh, and the natives also ate fish, of course. Even some vegetarians will eat fish every now and then.

Now you know, I work out. I love gaining muscle. I never really started gaining muscle though, until I really ramped up my intake of meat. And since I've started eating meat with every meal (not including snacks which are mostly fruit based), I've had a plethora of benefits. For starters, my coordination has improved. My state of mind is more clear, I no longer have insomnia, and I can lift things with such ease that I've seen it surprise people. I used to work out before I changed my diets to include more meats. I never gained near the amount of muscle I wanted to, my coordination did not improve, and I still had insomnia sometimes. Now I'm just one person with a very specific body type. However, of the billions of people on the Earth, there are hundreds of millions of people with my body type. A meatless diet is not the answer for everyone, and I will never be vegan or vegetarian. However, I was once with a woman who said she had trouble digesting meat. She told me that plant based proteins were better because they can metabolize into whatever your body needs, because they are basic building blocks, but for me, it's different. My body works better with meat proteins that have already been formed into longer or larger molecules. Even with my diet, I have 0% body fat. My body does not store fat. It's all muscle bro. I look and feel great all the time. Except when I have allergies!

I looked up intramyocellular fats btw. Yes! That's about why my uncle and I take in fats to gain mass.

Oh and btw, I think pork and cheese are absolutely gross. :p

Thank you for your interest in this. I do make sure to eat plenty of fruit :) Otherwise I would feel dry and angry. lol

 
I appreciate what you're doing here. It seems like you really have it in your heart and soul to try and help people. I like that, and I relate to it. Fruits are very important and of course the main source of actual healthy sugars (as opposed to the sugars we were discussing before, such as raw table sugar, which can cause diabetes). Personally, since sugar does cause diabetes, I would be squeamish about an all-fruit diet! The true key to health is not one side of the food pyramid or the other (and I am excluding candies, etc.), but a diet including enough of each different type of food to get all the nutrients that your body needs. Personally I have known some vegans in my time, and they all seemed to be not only scrawny, but a little...hardheaded as well. I remember one in particular who I befriended and defended against people in town who were short with him, until I figured out why they were. Guy thought he could save the world by converting everyone to veganism...I tried telling him that if he really wanted to change the world in that way, he should lobby for laws regarding the factory farming industry to be changed. He refused to listen and insisted that he had the answer, which did not convert me to his ways. A thought I had was that perhaps malnutrition was affecting his mind. Either that, or he was already not in a good state of mind when he chose that way of life.

What I have noticed about meats, is that most of what is sold at standard price is filled with additives which cause chest pains and other weird symptoms. To get pure meat that doesn't cause any of those problems, you have to pay extra. I do pay extra, for the highest quality, purest meat I can find, and like I said, I eat meat multiple times every day and my prediabetic symptoms have gone away. I don't think I ever would have gained weight at all, even if I did become diabetic, because my metabolism is too high. So you could be right about the weight thing with candies as opposed to fats, but of course, they all contribute (to fat and obesity).

You see though, I'm not just eating pizza and fried chicken, despite the fact that I am American. My favorite things to cook up are steaks with broccoli and rice, buffalo roast with sweet potatoes and carrots, stir fry, burritos, and yes, sometimes burgers. I also incorporate nuts into my food whenever I can and eat fruits and berries on the side as snacks. The fact that my diet has everything I need is the reason I'm now healthy. It could also help that I don't drink milk or eat pork. Pork is especially bad as far as parasites go and milk is just gross. I also barely eat any chicken. Just lamb, beef, and buffalo.

A lot of people think that eating meat is unhealthy because of the low quality meat that is predominantly sold in stores, or because it is fried, or even simply because it's pork that wasn't cooked all the way through. But there's one culture you left out, one culture that I descend from, which is the native american Cherokee tribe that hunted the buffalo and never had any significant health problems (besides syphilis god rest their souls) until the white man came. The Europeans of course lived in such close proximity to certain animals, such as the pig, that disease was rampant among them. Oh, and the natives also ate fish, of course. Even some vegetarians will eat fish every now and then.

Now you know, I work out. I love gaining muscle. I never really started gaining muscle though, until I really ramped up my intake of meat. And since I've started eating meat with every meal (not including snacks which are mostly fruit based), I've had a plethora of benefits. For starters, my coordination has improved. My state of mind is more clear, I no longer have insomnia, and I can lift things with such ease that I've seen it surprise people. I used to work out before I changed my diets to include more meats. I never gained near the amount of muscle I wanted to, my coordination did not improve, and I still had insomnia sometimes. Now I'm just one person with a very specific body type. However, of the billions of people on the Earth, there are hundreds of millions of people with my body type. A meatless diet is not the answer for everyone, and I will never be vegan or vegetarian. However, I was once with a woman who said she had trouble digesting meat. She told me that plant based proteins were better because they can metabolize into whatever your body needs, because they are basic building blocks, but for me, it's different. My body works better with meat proteins that have already been formed into longer or larger molecules. Even with my diet, I have 0% body fat. My body does not store fat. It's all muscle bro. I look and feel great all the time. Except when I have allergies!

I looked up intramyocellular fats btw. Yes! That's about why my uncle and I take in fats to gain mass.

Oh and btw, I think pork and cheese are absolutely gross. :p

Thank you for your interest in this. I do make sure to eat plenty of fruit :) Otherwise I would feel dry and angry. lol
Look up sarcopenic obesity (aka TOFI - I like how it reminds of toffee). Not even the slender reliably escape the ills of saturated and trans-fats - and just excess fats in general.

Look up pre-colonial indigenous diet. The hunter-gatherer is really an unfortunate name. Considering the logistics of hunting in the ancient environment, it was by far gathering than hunting. Our massive intake of animal products is very much a modern phenomenon, and we're all worse for it. Now it's a stick of broccoli to a steak, instead of a few slivers of steak to flavor a smorgasbord of plant delights.

Look up Nimai Delgado. Animals get protein from plants. Elephants, gorillas, rhinos, giraffes, horses, even buffalo - no one needs animals to get big. But there's definitely a link between the 2 - all those naturally occuring hormones (not injected) are known to have activity in us as well. Girls menstruate earlier; boys and girls mature faster; and the world gets fatter - outside and in.

 
Look up sarcopenic obesity (aka TOFI - I like how it reminds of toffee). Not even the slender reliably escape the ills of saturated and trans-fats - and just excess fats in general.

Look up pre-colonial indigenous diet. The hunter-gatherer is really an unfortunate name. Considering the logistics of hunting in the ancient environment, it was by far gathering than hunting. Our massive intake of animal products is very much a modern phenomenon, and we're all worse for it. Now it's a stick of broccoli to a steak, instead of a few slivers of steak to flavor a smorgasbord of plant delights.

Look up Nimai Delgado. Animals get protein from plants. Elephants, gorillas, rhinos, giraffes, horses, even buffalo - no one needs animals to get big. But there's definitely a link between the 2 - all those naturally occuring hormones (not injected) are known to have activity in us as well. Girls menstruate earlier; boys and girls mature faster; and the world gets fatter - outside and in.
Well, the statement "nobody needs animals to get big," is incorrect. As I've said, I never had significant gains until I started eating meat with every meal, and eating at least 1/2 pound of meat (approx. 1/4 kilo) with a meal every time I work out. Our massive intake of meat is not solely a modern, nor a European phenomenon. The native americans would go on great hunts where they would kill a buffalo (or multiple) and bring the meat back to their tribe. I also had a Lakota on the west coast give me smoked salmon, prepared in the way the natives do it--it was the most delicious fish I've ever had in my life. The native Americans had their fill of fruits and vegetables, yes, but they also had their fill of meat. The difference between elephants and humans is that elephants are not omnivores. We became omnivores as a species during the ice age when plant life was very hard to find. If you do not require meat to reach your fullest potential, it's easiest just to say that you and I have evolved differently. That's why I'm not trying to apply my own diet to your life--I know that we both have different needs. It's a matter of course.

The last thing you said makes a lot of sense to me. Must be why my gains started coming after I changed my diet. Maybe it's those hormones my body needs, and not the animal proteins--or perhaps my body needs both in conjunction. All I know is that after 27 years of life, I've finally found the perfect diet for myself! All there is now is to learn new dishes that I can make from the staples I love.

By the way, did you know that trans-fats are now illegal in the USA? No man or company is allowed to sell any food product that contains trans-fats. Many snack companies had to change their recipes to remove it!

Anyway, we might disagree on a lot, but I respect your views and the way you present them. Just to put that out there. :) It is very important to remain friendly and not let our forum become Facebook, you know? <3

 
Well, the statement "nobody needs animals to get big," is incorrect. As I've said, I never had significant gains until I started eating meat with every meal, and eating at least 1/2 pound of meat (approx. 1/4 kilo) with a meal every time I work out. Our massive intake of meat is not solely a modern, nor a European phenomenon. The native americans would go on great hunts where they would kill a buffalo (or multiple) and bring the meat back to their tribe. I also had a Lakota on the west coast give me smoked salmon, prepared in the way the natives do it--it was the most delicious fish I've ever had in my life. The native Americans had their fill of fruits and vegetables, yes, but they also had their fill of meat. The difference between elephants and humans is that elephants are not omnivores. We became omnivores as a species during the ice age when plant life was very hard to find. If you do not require meat to reach your fullest potential, it's easiest just to say that you and I have evolved differently. That's why I'm not trying to apply my own diet to your life--I know that we both have different needs. It's a matter of course.

The last thing you said makes a lot of sense to me. Must be why my gains started coming after I changed my diet. Maybe it's those hormones my body needs, and not the animal proteins--or perhaps my body needs both in conjunction. All I know is that after 27 years of life, I've finally found the perfect diet for myself! All there is now is to learn new dishes that I can make from the staples I love.

By the way, did you know that trans-fats are now illegal in the USA? No man or company is allowed to sell any food product that contains trans-fats. Many snack companies had to change their recipes to remove it!

Anyway, we might disagree on a lot, but I respect your views and the way you present them. Just to put that out there. :) It is very important to remain friendly and not let our forum become Facebook, you know? <3
Disagreement isn't bad. Makes me think about my position from different angles, some I might not have otherwise considered. And to me, right or wrong, one has to respect an inquiring mind.

Well, when you say Ice Age, remember that much, if not most, of humanity was not braving the cold that was more so in the Northern Hemisphere. And so even now when you go to rural and indigenous populations today, it's by far a plant-based diet.

Don't get me wrong - not vegan, but plant based. That said, if one had to put a number on it, it's quite interesting to note that our closest evolutionary relatives (chimpanzees and bonobos) are estimated to have a diet that's about 94% plants (the remaining 6% is mostly insects and then occasionally monkey meat). One study conducted on Okinawa Japanese still consuming a traditional diet resulted in about 90% plant based - and this appears pretty consistent.

Evolution is pretty consistent. Even across species after deviation. It's also slow for higher-order species - we have few young and they mature slowly, and the genome is highly resistant to change/error. We may have different mass, height, complexion, etc., but we evolved with a particular diet to which we are best adapted, even while being flexible.

Cross-species comparative studies clearly indicate that that diet for humans is without doubt a high-fiber diet, especially well suited for fruit intake (frugivore). From our teeth to our gut to even our physical make-up.

Yes, our big brains discovered ways to conquer and then make just about anything more palatable and digestible (mind you, we did the same for plants, not just animals), but our evolution didn't start with us - it goes back millions of years to species that gave rise to us and certainly had a diet centered about plants.

ironically, that big brain is likely a result of foraging, or at least was helped along quite well by it. Think about primates vs. your favorite land-based predators. As it turns out, it takes a far bigger brain to remember many different plants, where you last saw them, when they ripen, and so on than it takes to ambush and kill animals. (I say land animals because the marine world appears to be an exception to this rule - e.g., dolphins, killer whales, etc.)

Trans-fats were indeed banned. Prior to this ban, the largest source was by humans - hydrogenated oils (us discovering how to harden oils into butter). Guess what the largest source now reverts back to! Yup, animals are a natural source of trans-fats and prior to human ingenuity, the only. Btw, the ban isn't absolute. It's a threshold of less than 0.5g per serving. So most of your favorite non-dairy butter snacks and non-dairy butters will still contain them, but companies just get to advertise 0g trans-fats if they meet that threshold.

The issue with hormones, though, is that they do many, many things, and they follow a program as well as influence the program of much of our physiology. Kids do a lot of growing and developing, then mature to reproductive capacity. Adults mostly maintain, so only grow in 2 ways - sideways or cancer. (Muscle growth is mostly just sweling.) So having an extraneous source is not a good thing - and indeed, hence the link to precocious development in boys and girls, obesity, disease (ovarian dysfunction, uterine fibroids, thyroid disorders, cancer, etc.).

Seriously, though, check out Nimai Delgado. He and others are showing that bodybuilding doesn't need to be the cardiovascular disease-inducing shitshow it's been so far. And why would it? Elephants, gorillas, rhinos, ruminants, etc.

 
Without quoting your entire post this time, I'd just like to respond to a few points.

"Well, when you say Ice Age, remember that much, if not most, of humanity was not braving the cold that was more so in the Northern Hemisphere. And so even now when you go to rural and indigenous populations today, it's by far a plant-based diet."

I live in North America and descend from the North American indigenous people. They eat a lot of meat, and they're really good at cooking it. As far back as you can look into their history, they eat meat.

"Evolution is pretty consistent. Even across species after deviation. It's also slow for higher-order species - we have few young and they mature slowly, and the genome is highly resistant to change/error. We may have different mass, height, complexion, etc., but we evolved with a particular diet to which we are best adapted, even while being flexible."

Sorry, bro, but mostly false. As I've already said, I require a meat-based diet to reach my fullest potential. For some reason, however, I seem to attract women who eat mostly plants. One of the women I've been with described to me how she had trouble digesting meats and couldn't eat too much. I am the opposite. I have no trouble eating or digesting meat. It makes me feel whole instead of making me feel troubled. That's a pretty big deviation. It was from this relationship I learned that people could have drastically different body types and require different nutrients. Her bloodline descended from Hawaii--probably why she wasn't a big meat eater. I imagine there were not many buffalo roaming the Hawaiian islands. Probably the most common and available meat would have been fish, with not much else to choose from. Since her bloodline was eating plants and fish while mine was eating buffalo, it makes perfect sense that our bloodlines evolved differently.
Our genome is designed for change, not only based on what works, but also based on error. There is a tribe in Africa which has an extra joint in their knee (or perhaps it was their foot), and they are able to jump 6 feet into the air. People who live in Europe are often able to bend their legs and feet into yoga poses that Americans are unable to perform, because American children don't usually bend their feet in that way. Black people have a completely different muscular structure than white people. Across the human race, there are innumerable branches of human evolution, all occurring in different ways. Just like how there are venomous snakes and non-venomous garden snakes.

"Muscle growth is mostly just sweling"

You should totally start working out, bro. If you think muscle growth is just swelling, wait until you actually start getting gains. Working out improves your mood, coordination, and gives you an outlet for pent up anger and unreleased sexual energy. People who work out often are more connected and aware of the things happening around them, as well as in greater control of their mood than people who don't. Except for steroid users who are typically on-edge. Good thing I don't use steroids!
Before I started working out, I was a bit of a klutz, constantly dropping things on the floor, etc. Now if I ever drop something, I seem to always catch it before it even travels a foot from my hand! This comes from working out, my friend.

The animals you mentioned at the end of your post, btw, have tremendous muscles because of the constant physical demands they put on themselves while living in the wild. I mean, gorillas? If you were swinging from tree to tree and lifting your entire body weight all day, you'd be ripped too! That's why I do pull-ups. Rhinos have to use the whole force of their body to impale somebody with their horn. They aren't just born with big muscles, bro. They have physiologies that have not evolved to require meat, because their ancestors never really ate it. My ancestors ate predominantly meat for generations. In any case, my case or theirs, it is the physical demand which caused our muscles to grow. A muscular person has a baby and that baby is more likely to develop muscles more easily. That's evolution. A man eats meat all his life, and it teaches his body to break down and use the proteins in the meat incredibly efficiently. This is also evolution

One place I agree with you is that if you don't eat plants and fruits, you will be a very dehydrated, hungry, angry man. Whatever anyone's body type is, they should always make sure to eat whatever it is their body needs, and to exclude whatever causes them harm. For me, I had to learn to eat more meat, drink more water, and do less drugs. And I thank God for all the progress I've made! There are plenty of meat-eaters who have the body type that requires meat. If you find one that doesn't eat enough fruit or veggies, you'll be putting your advice in just the right place. :)

And now, without further ado, I'd like to share my favorite character from Dragon Ball:


Dude is so ridiculously huge and cut lol. Must be all that buffalo meat!

Btw, if you notice, their spears are mostly for hunting. This is also true in real-life. In combat, the Natives would use tomahaks, bows, guns, clubs, and hatchets. The spear was still used in combat but not as often as these other weapons. Bows and of course guns were not invented by the native americans. Much like horses, they obtained these tools from another culture and mastered them.

 
They might eat a lot of meat now, but not back then. In fact, their spiritual connection to the land and animals disputes that, as does anthropological study. Taking of life, animal or otherwise, isn't taken lightly (of course, with variation among the many different tribes - but none would have had the industrial scale production to even support such an undertaking). You might be substituting the present for the past. High animal product consumption just wasn't common, especially once sedentary (as opposed to nomadic) life took hold, with which came lots of farming.

As for evolution, that's just based on fact. I guess you can choose not to believe it, but you wouldn't get far trying to convince a geneticist that human genomes are "designed for change". I'm not even sure what that means. We have extensive repair and fail-safe mechanisms to ensure a stable genome. You may consult a genetics textbook for this - or Wikipedia.

What you're describing are subjective differences. Unless she has an allergy/intolerance to meat, her digestion of it is likely just fine, but she may not feel well digesting it. Animal products are harsh on the digestive system (not to mention kidneys), and some people are likely more sensitive to it than others.

I won't even comment on Hawaiians, Maasai, etc. Obesity in Pacific Islanders is a huge problem - without a doubt their massive uptake of animal products in their diet that deviates from their traditional diet.

By the way, Native Americans are in similar dire straits. Their health indices actually go counter against your assertions. If they were that used to animal products and uniquely and optimally adapted to it, like carnivores, they wouldn't be among the worst in the nation in health statistics (esp. metabolic syndrome markers - obesity, hypertension, high cholesterol, diabetes). Lions and other carnivores in the wild don't get cholesterol problems, with resultant heart attacks, strokes and so on.

Chimpanzees swing through trees. Gorillas are actually quite sedentary (doing quite a bit of lounging and digesting the pounds of foliage they consume daily). Orangutans aren't racing through trees either. Sure, they all move, but gyms are very much a human peculiarity.

Most animals do not concern themselves with exercising, and their activity level might actually be quite low, but eating the diet one is best adapted to just does not typically lead to obesity and other health problems, like diabetes, regardless of activity level.

Spears... I mean, what about agricultural tools? Spears also killed fellow humans. Does that mean cannibalism was common? Humans use tools. That's about all spears, and many other tools used by humans, can confidently conclude.

 
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