Subutex - Precipitated WD

[rocketman]

So I've read a zillion opinions on this topic all over the web but want some opinions from the people here who I trust.  How far into WD (i.e., how bad) do you have to be to avoid precipitated WD? 

Talking about Subutex (not Suboxone) and coming off of oxy (nothing else).  I took subs about 12 years ago and then went on methadone for about 6-7 years.  Detoxed off of that and never taken methadone since.  I do not recall having a precipitated WD the first time I had Subs years ago and from what I have read it would be impossible to forget.  Back then I transitioned from oxy to Subutex but do not remember how sick I was when I started it but I know I was not in severe WD at induction but probably some.  I did an 8-day Suboxone taper back in January this year but that was medically supervised and I was coming off of a longer run (6 months as opposed to 2 now) and on both oxy and a lot of Opana.  Now just oxy and my Rx is Subutex not Suboxone. 

Suggestions based on your own experience?

Thanks - love this community!

-rocket

 

[jammass]

My 2 pennies worth is I have always had precipitated withdrawals from subutex (bupropion only) even when rattling my a** off they are only a partial agonist made from the sine the weakest of all of the milks in the poppy. If they where gonna make it painless you would need to titration up to a massive dose due to it being only a partial agonist but a very potent partial agonist so if you where using H only and they said wait 24 hours before we give it to you. We all know it takes three days for the H to get off of the opiate receptors but if they give you subutex 24 hours into withdrawal or as long as you can stand it when you take the subutex the agonist part which is very weak and partial antagonist will bind very tightly to the opiate receptor and because the partial is stronger it kicks any H opiate off the receptor quickly making you feel worse until your brain and opiate receptors throughout your body your stomach, spinal chord etc get used to the bizarre combination of having a agonist/antagonist bound to receptors hard.

That is why is is a partial agonist/antagonist on the opiate receptor as it was originally called Temgesic for cancer pain but made partially antagonist so you could have high painkilling doses without the breathing depression, sedation etc as if it was made full agonist it would be very strong drug they only made subutex, a disaster imo as a wonder drug, to get it back on patent as buprenorphine was generic and costing pennies so get rebrand use the partial agonist/antagonist for drug addicts as a long lasting drug and blast them with it and the H molecule will not stick to the receptors as subutex coats it making it a blocker then when subutex patent was coming to end add suboxone under the guise of uninjectable to patent it longer as the tiny amount of naloxone in suboxone will have no affect due to partial blocker effect of buprenorphine hope that helps so no matter how long you wait you will always get precipitated WD as bupe kicks all other opiates off the receptor.

Hope that makes sense and helps!!!

 

[rocketman]

Thanks @jammass.  I agree with your technical explanation of how partial agonists/antagonists work - all correct.  But plenty of people never had precipitated WD.  I haven't ever and have gone on it before.  I know a ton of people who haven't as well.  To say that one always gets it simply is not true.  It dominates the receptors but unless you are too close to the time of your last full agonist use you will not go into PWD. 

I posted what I did to find out what people thought about the timing of how long I need to wait now.  That was all.

 

[jammass]

Well normally the times with Subutex is from H at least 12 hours possibly 18 with Methadone they normally say get down to 30 ml or less the least the better and wait 24-36 hours before taking it hope that is the answer you where looking for not the long winded agonis/antagonist debate lol stay cool dude!!

 

[rocketman]

lol!!  wondering what you think about oxy only??

 

[jammass]

Never done it never been a thing in UK it was H or nothing and I also did snowballs H with a rock dropped in and crushed lol!!!

 

[Handsley]

When I started suboxone with a doc many years ago, he looked for all the symptoms before he would start administering subox.  The one thing he wanted to see was goosebumps, runny nose, a slightly higher BP and asking if the bowels were loose yet.  All of these signs mean you are ready to start it.  I was maybe about 24 hours-30 hours after last dose?  I can't remember for sure, but I know it was at least 24 hours.  And don't forget to start wtih the lowest dose possible to stave off WD symptoms.