Anxiety And Rs

[deperson]

Hey WP....LOVE YOUR POSTS TOO, i thinkhe is talking about exiting conventional life. Work, money, people and thelike. The superficial bullshit. Am i wrong deperson? I so feel that too. I hate "the game".

The exit strategy in the way I used it would indeed refer to a final solution to the problem of existence. I wouldn't worry about me going away soon: I know that I know too little to make the call.

I, of course, have a long-term strategic goal if you want to use the same terminology to get off the grid in the way you're saying also. The other is simply a backup if I become checkmated so to speak.

It just strikes me as self-evident that one cannot live freely if one cannot die freely either. So the exit strategy can be seen as life-affirming rather than a looming existential threat as WP seems to see it.

Freedom is a beast of a concept to understand in and of itself, however.

 

[wyldepixie]

Yeah I totally get that urge myself. Most, if not all, of my problems could be solved (avoided) by living in a cabin in the middle of nowhere. Just one of the sentence's wording made me a little worried.

 

[wyldepixie]

I don't see suicide as life affirming at all, yeah.

 

[wyldepixie]

Okay, this is how I feel on the topic. Warning, some might find this viewpoint offensive.

I DO believe in personal freedom. I believe its a person's right to make that decision. I fully believe in a woman's right to choose abortion as well. Perhaps even more strongly, though, I believe most women who take that route are choosing wrongly. My opinion of suicide is the same. It's always making the selfish choice. Maybe, sometimes, it's even the best choice for that person but it's putting your needs and desires over the well being of someone else. Again where my opinions of those two are identical I feel that every other option should be carefully considered FIRST.

 

[deperson]

Okay, this is how I feel on the topic. Warning, some might find this viewpoint offensive.

I DO believe in personal freedom. I believe its a person's right to make that decision. I fully believe in a woman's right to choose abortion as well. Perhaps even more strongly, though, I believe most women who take that route are choosing wrongly. My opinion of suicide is the same. It's always making the selfish choice. Maybe, sometimes, it's even the best choice for that person but it's putting your needs and desires over the well being of someone else. Again where my opinions of those two are identical I feel that every other option should be carefully considered FIRST.

Here is a possibly more offensive point of view:

If you are a believer in personal choice, then how could you ever condone the act of having children in the first place? Non-existent or potential people don't suffer but living or existing people who know that they exist do. No person made their own decision to come into being because they simply weren't in existence to make that choice.

I didn't choose to exist and would retroactively choose not to. However, even with a time machine, I could not stop my birth without first having the decision to come into existence made for me. Hence the act of child-birth is anti-choice.

I consider being aware of one's existence to be a paramount concept (one that considers more thought on my part) and I'm not convinced fetuses or even young babies exist and know they exist. Grass exists, but it doesn't know that it exists. With "higher" organisms, this gets more and more sticky so I'd err on the side of anti-natalism.

And, yes, it's very possible for someone to exist and know that they exist and to be glad that they exist. This is not a contradiction or counter-example. If these people weren't brought into existence, they'd not be worse off for they never were there to begin with to have such an opinion. Thus, not having kids is either good or neutral while having kids is either good or bad. If you assign numerical values, you get +1 for good, +0 for neutral, and -1 for bad. So, in conclusion, not having kids would be a +1 (1+0), that is, a positive decision whereas having kids is 0 (1-1) or neutral if good and bad births were equal. 1 is greater than 0, hence logically one should not have kids. You might say: 'Hey, most people are glad to exist, so it's not equal!' I say show me even one person who doesn't want to exist, then the decision to have kids would always be less than +1 overall and always favor anti-natalism.

I'd make a second argument about suicide, but both are complex issues, so I'd like to hear your thoughts on the former issue you brought up first.

 

[wyldepixie]

I definately don't think people's lives are either good or bad except potentially extreme outliers. Most people's lives are good AND bad rather than either or. I certainly have no problem with people choosing not to have children I just can't comprehend abortion as their birth control choice when their are countless other safer and healthier choices. By all means if they fail abortion can be considered. A child raised by people who don't want them isn't my intent at all. I just think abortion is potentially both physically and psychologically dangerous to the woman. As for the man he doesn't even get a say legally and I think that is psychologically damaging as well for them to feel potentially helpless to protect their offspring. There are other people this decision impacts as well such as would-be grandparents. You know whether you want children or not and I feel the morally superior choice is to use birth control at the stage where it really does only impact yourself.

 

[deperson]

I definately don't think people's lives are either good or bad except potentially extreme outliers. Most people's lives are good AND bad rather than either or. I certainly have no problem with people choosing not to have children I just can't comprehend abortion as their birth control choice when their are countless other safer and healthier choices. By all means if they fail abortion can be considered. A child raised by people who don't want them isn't my intent at all. I just think abortion is potentially both physically and psychologically dangerous to the woman. As for the man he doesn't even get a say legally and I think that is psychologically damaging as well for them to feel potentially helpless to protect their offspring. There are other people this decision impacts as well such as would-be grandparents. You know whether you want children or not and I feel the morally superior choice is to use birth control at the stage where it really does only impact yourself.

I never said their lives were wholly good or wholly bad, merely whether or not they would have chosen to live it had they the choice not to. This is difficult philosophically to ask anyway since one cannot imagine not existing.

And, I think the woman is less important than the potential person she is bringing into existence. She didn't have a choice, but she has the choice not to make another person who may potentially have a horrible life. I don't consider a conglomerate of human looking cells and some neural tissue to be of any significance, so abortion in that case phases me none. I feel worse for the chicken trapped in a cage for its entire lifetime making eggs even compared to a scenario where I were aborted post-birth. I have no recollection of my birth and I'd imagine the whole affair would be quite horrible if I had the capability of mind that I possess now, but I didn't so even if I had a doctor chop off a piece of my junk without anesthesia, I wouldn't remember it, nor would I remember being killed but that would be obvious. I don't remember or care about any of this because I only existed at that point. I didn't know that I existed until 3+ years later and, indeed, my very first complete, verifiable memory is the disturbing realization that I'm a separate entity from the universe. That was the start of what made me what I am, anything before that is irrelevant to me.

Also, having good parents who want you and all that jazz does not prevent one from becoming that chicken trapped in a cage its entire life especially if you guilt it into never leaving that cage.

Who are the selfish people?

 

[wyldepixie]

As far as I can tell you're actively advocating an end to humanity. That makes me feel bad for you. You are presenting your argument in an orderly and logical manner but I feel as though you built it from a very dysfunctional starting point and to follow it through to it's obvious conclusion reveals a disturbingly distorted world view. As stated at the beginning I believe people have to make their own decisions and its not my right to decide for them. I can believe something is immoral but my feelings don't supersede their right to choose...whether the topic is abortion, suicide, or even something like infidelity. I believe most people just choose the easiest path.

 

[deperson]

Aye, a dysfunctional man for a dysfunctional world it would appear. Maybe logic and reason are worth nothing and my life a waste (if a valueless thing can be wasted). Try as I might to understand but failing all the while.

 

[wyldepixie]

It's very difficult to apply logic and reason to humanity since we seem at the very fiber of our beings illogical and messy. I certainly didn't intend any insult. I find your argument interesting I just can't see the world through that perspective. Don't get down on yourself you're obviously a very intelligent person. You just need to find that thing or things to bring a little light into your world and help give it the meaning.

 

[2earls]

I'm too tired right now to grapple with the pros and cons of eliminating the human race to prevent the miseries we inflict on our world or ourselves. I think philosophy is interesting to read and study, but I do not think one can find meaning and happiness in other men's ideas. I believe doing what you believe will make you most happy in life being the #1 priority. I stopped listening to everyone telling me what I should do. I stopped putting others before myself. I stopped being "rational" and "sensible".

It is simplistic and it has worked for me.

I no longer suffer from crippling depression. For me being happy and content is the meaning of life. Get there anyway you can.

 

[Phrenicz]

You never know though, that child brought into the world, wherever it may happen, may be the one person instrumental in the change that the earth and the entire human race so desperately needs!... Hell, that person could be even you or me?

Leaving the argument of existence a theoretically moot point?

As existence would then be absolutely justified and in our current many world crises, would be a very welcome, even needed addition.

It has to come from somewhere and I will not be convinced that the world should cease to exist, when there are so many good people out there, fighting so many good causes..

I for one, am not ready to give up, even though on more than a couple of occasions I easily could have done. I could have also justified it to myself at the time! However, the unpredictability of life and it's many twists & turns is what makes it and us unique and keeps most of us hanging in there..

Our inherent humanity, personal morals and pragmatism are also what makes us unique, giving everybody the power, no matter how crippled by fear, anxiety, worry, addiction, loss, fear, self loathing or self doubt, to change whatever circumstance they are in, in an instant...

And in life, checkmate doesn't exist... There are too many variables.. There is always, no matter what, another option... Granted, there may be a few mental and logistical problems to overcome on the way, but in you own words @deperson... "The war can be won"

And I'm not renown for my optimism?!

~P~

 

[wyldepixie]

You never know though, that child brought into the world, wherever it may happen, may be the one person instrumental in the change that the earth and the entire human race so desperately needs!... Hell, that person could be even you or me?

Leaving the argument of existence a theoretically moot point?

As existence would then be absolutely justified and in our current many world crises, would be a very welcome, even needed addition.

It has to come from somewhere and I will not be convinced that the world should cease to exist, when there are so many good people out there, fighting so many good causes..

I for one, am not ready to give up, even though on more than a couple of occasions I easily could have done. I could have also justified it to myself at the time! However, the unpredictability of life and it's many twists & turns is what makes it and us unique and keeps most of us hanging in there..

Our inherent humanity, personal morals and pragmatism are also what makes us unique, giving everybody the power, no matter how crippled by fear, anxiety, worry, addiction, loss, fear, self loathing or self doubt, to change whatever circumstance they are in, in an instant...

And in life, checkmate doesn't exist... There are too many variables.. There is always, no matter what, another option... Granted, there may be a few mental and logistical problems to overcome on the way, but in you own words @deperson... "The war can be won"

And I'm not renown for my optimism?!

~P~

Agree so much with this.

 

[2earls]

You never know though, that child brought into the world, wherever it may happen, may be the one person instrumental in the change that the earth and the entire human race so desperately needs!... Hell, that person could be even you or me?

Leaving the argument of existence a theoretically moot point?

As existence would then be absolutely justified and in our current many world crises, would be a very welcome, even needed addition.

It has to come from somewhere and I will not be convinced that the world should cease to exist, when there are so many good people out there, fighting so many good causes..

I for one, am not ready to give up, even though on more than a couple of occasions I easily could have done. I could have also justified it to myself at the time! However, the unpredictability of life and it's many twists & turns is what makes it and us unique and keeps most of us hanging in there..

Our inherent humanity, personal morals and pragmatism are also what makes us unique, giving everybody the power, no matter how crippled by fear, anxiety, worry, addiction, loss, fear, self loathing or self doubt, to change whatever circumstance they are in, in an instant...

And in life, checkmate doesn't exist... There are too many variables.. There is always, no matter what, another option... Granted, there may be a few mental and logistical problems to overcome on the way, but in you own words @deperson... "The war can be won"

And I'm not renown for my optimism?!

~P~

That was so lovely and uplifting, it made me sing Kumbaya.