Benzo Hierarchy

[Jellopanda]

Is there a sort of hierarchy for benzos when it comes to strenght. Talking particularly about when it comes to anxiety here.

I'm aware of course that there are different uses for them apart from anxiety. L@razep@m is useful for alchohol withdrawal for instance and and Clon@zepam is useful for panic disorder.

I'm asking about general anxiety here tho and would like hear about what are the most effective/strongest benzo.

Reason i ask is that d1@z is getting less efficient, and i gradually have to take more and more of it. though they still work so far. is there anything else i could take to lessen my tolerance for d!@z , tho i'm not sure benzos work that way. I'm also not quite sure it's wise to ask for something stronger as i feel like i'm in danger of getting addicted. Problem is that d1az is what enables me to do a lot of things i need to do, like leave my house or talk to other people.

In short i'm looking for advice to my particular predicament, whether that be taking a break from benzos, getting something stronger (if there is anything stronger than d1@z). trying another benzo, looking for other anxiety reducing alternatives or anything else you might think could help. hoping for some of that insight i haven't been able to find myself

 

[Jellopanda]

Through some reading i got some answers to at least some of my questions. M1das0lam and Br0t1z0l@m especially seem much stronger than d1@z. Almost scarily so.

It still leaves me with a predicament. seeing as i might be in danger of addiction and my tolerance is going up. should i switch to something more effective. Problem is i don't have enough of a medical education (by that i mean none at all) to know if switching a benzo with another benzo will help me with any of those problems.

I had this thought that if i switched to a stronger benzo i would get the anxiety reducing effect i need, while at the same time my tolerance for d1@z would go down, but for all i know, taking a different benzo could just increase my tolerance for all benzos while making me even more addicted. Now that the email vendors have provided me with a smorgasbord of everything benzo it's tempting to try them all, but i guess i should show some restraint.

 

[Smoka90]

I guess whether or not you take di@z daily is essential here. If you do, then I really wouldn't switch to anything else. If you're using benzohs daily, then d!@z is the most reliable option you can go for. It has a long half life which means that it would be easier to taper off from and you'd be less likely to get serious side effects from quitting, such as seizures. Although those things can still easily happen, it'd maybe be more likely with potent, short acting ones.

If you're looking for alternatives, then definitely look into kava, if you can get it. Don't discount it. I did for ages, then tried it, and it is so, so helpful. I have some instant kava kept by for emergencies. I used some last week when I went back to studying. I was very anxious but the kava helped so much; I only needed benzohs on one of the four days I was in. If you buy instant or micronised kava, you can put it into capsules without needing to make tea or anything.

It doesn't build a tolerance and has no withdrawal. Yes, it does exist! Sounds like the holy grail. It has a mild reverse tolerance, meaning the first few times you try it, it's not that noticable. But it gets useful quite quickly.

Let me know what you think of all that, I'd be happy to help more if I can. =)

 

[Jellopanda]

I waited to give an answer here on friday, and restricted myself to less serious topics, as i got a weird reaction from a combination of d1@z and cody, which i know i'm ideally not supposed to combine, and try not to, if at all possible, but i was both in pain and feeling anxious. My pain lessened sometime during the night however so because of little to no sleep the entire previous week i slept for 21 hours which left me feeling relaxed, but somewhat groggy.

@Smoka90 I'm gonna answer both your reply here and the one in the relative strenght of benzos thread. I don't take d1@z every day, but i need to every time i leave the house, which isn't necessarily often as my work rarely requires me to. In fact just getting to the point where i decide to go outside usually requires d1@z. As my father used to say: The mile to your door's threshold is the longest mile.

I want to be able to do that more and my psychiatric nurse is helping me with that. He comes by a couple of times every week and we just do stuff, like go for walks, to a cafe or the cinema and we've started working on overcoming my phobia for taking the bus. For these kinds of things d1@z works relatively well, but i have had to up my dosage. Here the long-lasting effect and little to no euphoria and sedation is a plus as it makes me feel like i have a modicum of control. So d1@z and benz0s like it would seem to be what i need.

However, sometimes i'm hit with anxiety and/or depression for no particular reason at all. Like when sitting at home reading a book. My psychiatrist says this is probably due to chemical imbalances in my brain rather than outside influences. When this happens the euphoria and sedation, which i no longer get from d1@z, is a plus, often hugely helpful in fact, as this kind of mood takes me to a very dark and desperate place spiraling downwards till i consider or do things no one should consider or do.

I've now started to think that maybe two different benz0s for these two different things may be helpful to me. I have resorted to z0p1 for that second problem occasionally. Not to sleep, but because it makes me feel better. If it makes me sleep, which is hard to do when i feel that way, is a huge plus.

@Nikolas I don't drink anymore, apart from the lapse i had just the other day which i described in the thread C@de1in getting lackluster.

And to both Smoka90 and Nikolas. You have both been a great help. I've said so before, but i'll say it again. You are knowledgeable and seem to have experience on these topics.

 

[Smoka90]

@Jellopanda You seem like a lovely person, so I'm more than happy to help in anyway I can. =)

With long or short lasting benzohs...if you're disciplined, say, er...take benzohs twice a week for example, then short half life ones would be better. You see, that way it doesn't build up in your system so withdrawal is far less likely. But you have to avoid redosing with short acting ones. If you avoid redosing, taking a short duration benzo twice a week is far better than a long one twice a week.

Di@z has an enormous half life, absolutely massive, so you need to be very careful of it building up in your bloodstream. Brom@z has a lesser half life. Perhaps...that might be a better option than di@z, since there's less chance of withdrawal... I avoid di@z completely now for that reason...

For very short acting ones...ah, have you heard of et!zolam? That might be just what you're looking for with the second problem. Short half life but more forgiving than x@n@x (which I'm not a fan of...)

I would say maybe brom@z and et!zolam would be the best bets...?

Erm...I'm sorry if this didn't seem coherent... I feel a bit, er...'out of it'...? Eep... Just let me know if it didn't make sense, hehe.

Don't be afraid to ask me for help - I want to help you! =)

Thoughts are with you mate. Bad things always happen to good people... but we'll find something that works for you. =) Just check back here, let me know what you think, and maybe next time I'll, er...make more sense? Eep.

 

[dotcomkot]

i found the bromaz really calming an tbh im same i dont take diaz that often anymore. but then i have weeks where i want to be out of it. so i hammer nitraz or clons or summin, but tbh i try keep my tolerance as low as possible, like @Nikolas says u will build a tolerance really if ur taking them daily anyway, i find they become in effective very quick an diaz isnt strong enough at all. it sounds like u are having the same kind of prob. if u are talking about adding another benzo to ur list. tbh @Smoka90 advise is spot on. u seem like cool person. if u ever have time read dr ashton manual or skim read it at least, u will find all sorts of helpful stuff in there. even though its really a detox method. but u can never read enough of info about meds, esp if u are/plan to take them. google will also give u this hierachy u seek, there are comparison scales all sorts for u to get a god idea on what half life each med has etc compared to the others, an maybe whats best for u. 

THE MANUAL

http://www.benzo.org.uk/manual/

COMPARISON SCALEs

http://www.benzo.org.uk/bzequiv.htm

http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/2172250-overview

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_benzodiazepines

i think the last looked fairly knowledgeable. but id read for yourself. 

lastly this site is very helpful 

http://benzo.org.uk/index.htm

hope that helps, u can rattle my ears anytime @Jellopanda

 

[Jellopanda]

When someone  take daily Benzos it is a matter of time to develop tolerance and dependence. The most you take the more you become tolerant to them. I talk from from the clinical point because I work in a clinic so I dont give only personal advices. All this class of drugs are for 2-4 weeks and then taper down . Even for pannic attacks the dose of Xanax has to be controled and at the end seek alternative means like psychotherapy in order to control attacks. I saw many people comming with the same problem . Cant cut off their benz. Benzos do have addictive potential at chronic use and maybe the best way to avoid it is to use with caution and wait for 5-6 days before you get the next pack of them. Alprazol@m, Lor@zep@m and ox@zepam are notorious for thei addictive potential.

I've understood what you say to be the case, but there seems to be so many doctors that prescribe this much longer, years even. All i've read in the literature and places say the same thing as you. Something like 2-4 weeks so it seems paradoxical that doctors prescribe it for years. Most extreme case i know of was a guy who broke his foot and his doctor told him he was depressed because of it and gave him d1@z, 5 mg every day. 36 years later he was still on that same dosage from the same doctor, when i pressed the guy on it he didn't know quite why he took it except that his doctor told him too.

 

[dotcomkot]

yeh most patients that have been on benzo for a while that have depresion usually end up far more depresed i was lit talking about this today at the clinic with a benzo worker

 

[Jellopanda]

Di@z has an enormous half life, absolutely massive, so you need to be very careful of it building up in your bloodstream. Brom@z has a lesser half life. Perhaps...that might be a better option than di@z, since there's less chance of withdrawal... I avoid di@z completely now for that reason...

For very short acting ones...ah, have you heard of et!zolam? That might be just what you're looking for with the second problem. Short half life but more forgiving than x@n@x (which I'm not a fan of...)

I would say maybe brom@z and et!zolam would be the best bets...?

I've actually ordered sample packs of brom@s, et!zolam and M1d@z now (felt easier than asking for a menu of benz0s from my doctor, even tho he's very free with giving out benz0s). I want to see if they help next time i hit rock bottom. And don't worry, i have some self-discipline (or at least acquired some) when it comes to meds so i won't combine or take more than one first time i take one.

 To have in mind I read all your posts and let me tell you that Benzos and Depression are good friends. We only give Benzo for certain DSM diagnoses that include anxiety combined with depression

I've been diagnosed with major depressive disorder, avoidant personality disorder and generalized anxiety disorder. A few other disorders have been on the table, but i haven't been formally diagnosed with those unlike the ones i mentioned. I don't know if that qualifies.

 

[dotcomkot]

apparantly i have that label to emotionally unstable personality disorder. feckin mouth full that aint it oh an ptsd from a fucked childhood home life

 

[Conceited]

I've actually ordered sample packs of brom@s, et!zolam and M1d@z now (felt easier than asking for a menu of benz0s from my doctor, even tho he's very free with giving out benz0s). I want to see if they help next time i hit rock bottom. And don't worry, i have some self-discipline (or at least acquired some) when it comes to meds so i won't combine or take more than one first time i take one.

I've been diagnosed with major depressive disorder, avoidant personality disorder and generalized anxiety disorder. A few other disorders have been on the table, but i haven't been formally diagnosed with those unlike the ones i mentioned. I don't know if that qualifies.

Are you able to get a script for all the meds you mentioned in your country if you  hint, or just flat out ask for one of them? I noticed that you are able to get some benzoe from reading  some of your posts. Your Dr seem like a good one who listen to their patient , and not think they know it all.

If only all Dr were like that, maybe people would be happy, more productive and want to be part of society.  

 

[Jellopanda]

Are you able to get a script for all the meds you mentioned in your country if you  hint, or just flat out ask for one of them? I noticed that you are able to get some benzoe from reading  some of your posts. Your Dr seem like a good one who listen to their patient , and not think they know it all.

If only all Dr were like that, maybe people would be happy, more productive and want to be part of society.  

He's very free with prescribing benz0s, but very restrictive about pain meds. i don't know quite why. If he's good or not... well, as i've said in previous posts he's quite weird. He does have some good points, like he's very available to me, i get an appointment within two or three days usually, and he often spends something like 90 minutes on me when i'm there. When it comes to listening i wouldn't say that he's a good listener exactly as most of those 90 minutes are spent on me listening to him talk

 

[dotcomkot]

yeh not so slack on b3nni3s over here they really are hard work, drs an treatment clinics (that ive had too an still use.) shit really. i wish uk was like norway. dunno about the cold though dam u must feel it when u or if u have ever had withdrawls. snow or brutally cold weather is the last thing u want. mind u uk is pretty shitty an wet most winter 2 week summers loool 

 

[Jellopanda]

yeh not so slack on b3nni3s over here they really are hard work, drs an treatment clinics (that ive had too an still use.) shit really. i wish uk was like norway. dunno about the cold though dam u must feel it when u or if u have ever had withdrawls. snow or brutally cold weather is the last thing u want. mind u uk is pretty shitty an wet most winter 2 week summers loool 

On the whole i feel norway's health-system is very good. About the weather, it's quite warm for like 6 months of the year, Only really cold in december, january and february. Norwegian summers are amazing most years. For my own part tho i must be a real viking as i dislike really warm weather and have no problem with cold

 

[dotcomkot]

On the whole i feel norway's health-system is very good. About the weather, it's quite warm for like 6 months of the year, Only really cold in december, january and february. Norwegian summers are amazing most years. For my own part tho i must be a real viking as i dislike really warm weather and have no problem with cold

ah ok. ive never been, just assumed it to be mentally cold over there hah dunno why. maybe the cos the image i have of it is snow an big viking like dudes everywhere in clothes made from animals theyve hunted  na im only playing. but i did think it was a really cold place... i kep meaning to go to kopenhagen with some mates that go an do spoken word/ poetry'ish (kinda rap tournaments) regularly so i have no excuse. a place called christiana i think. they say its like the free zone. not policed but self policed how true is that? also apparantly they the police are trying to take it back or something as one of the residents shot a policeman..? i didnt catch the full story my friend was telling me.

 

[Jellopanda]

@dotcomkotr gonna switch the norway discussion to the Norway thread in the Travel section. Will quote you there

I do have a question that's somewhat off-topic myself tho. What kinda experience do people have combining benz0s with coffee. was kinda wondering as it's mixing a depressant with a stimulant?

 

[Jellopanda]

So i woke up feeling really anxious today and it's stayed with me for most of the day. during the last 6 hours i've taken 80 mg of d1@z and i'm really tempted to take 20 mg more. Is this where i really should stop? Don't take d1@z more than a couple of days a week and at much lower doses, but i've gone from feeling shitty to ok in the past hours.

 

[Smoka90]

@Jellopanda This is just my opinion, but I'd say that is *definitely* where you should stop. No doubt about it. What I always remind myself about benzohs (and any substance, really) is that the relief they give me will vanish if I exploit it, if I take them everyday. And I mean completely vanish. The relief benzohs give you will only stick around if you keep your dosage to twice a week, maximum. I take 20mg di@z equivalent twice a week, have been doing that for maybe three years or so, and I still get relief from them and tolerance doesn't seem to have been an issue. It would be a completely different story if I'd been using daily.

I've learnt from experience; op8s were my first substance (sort of). I didn't respect them, took them every day, and now they don't really give me relief as such, they just help me keep going. And I'm not going to let benzohs get to that level.

Now, I know your situation is different from me, but I have anxiety too. Different reasons I guess; I'm always afraid of having a seizure in public or something, and I can't do social situations (eye contact...man...I can't do it normally!). How I cope is benzohs twice a week, phenibut once a week (there's no cross tolerance between phenibut and benzohs unless you do very high doses of phenibut) and kava on the other days. Yeah, the kava days are a bit more anxious than the others, but it's quite a sustainable way of doing things. Then again, what works for me might not work for you...I'm just rambling. Eep. =/

But I'd say definitely don't take anymore. Don't fall into the benzoh hole. Take a few days off, reset your tolerance and regain your confidence a bit. You can do it. =)

 

[Jellopanda]

@Jellopanda This is just my opinion, but I'd say that is *definitely* where you should stop. No doubt about it. What I always remind myself about benzohs (and any substance, really) is that the relief they give me will vanish if I exploit it, if I take them everyday. And I mean completely vanish. The relief benzohs give you will only stick around if you keep your dosage to twice a week, maximum. I take 20mg di@z equivalent twice a week, have been doing that for maybe three years or so, and I still get relief from them and tolerance doesn't seem to have been an issue. It would be a completely different story if I'd been using daily.

I've learnt from experience; op8s were my first substance (sort of). I didn't respect them, took them every day, and now they don't really give me relief as such, they just help me keep going. And I'm not going to let benzohs get to that level.

Now, I know your situation is different from me, but I have anxiety too. Different reasons I guess; I'm always afraid of having a seizure in public or something, and I can't do social situations (eye contact...man...I can't do it normally!). How I cope is benzohs twice a week, phenibut once a week (there's no cross tolerance between phenibut and benzohs unless you do very high doses of phenibut) and kava on the other days. Yeah, the kava days are a bit more anxious than the others, but it's quite a sustainable way of doing things. Then again, what works for me might not work for you...I'm just rambling. Eep. =/

But I'd say definitely don't take anymore. Don't fall into the benzoh hole. Take a few days off, reset your tolerance and regain your confidence a bit. You can do it. =)

I've read this thread and several others on this forum and done research on addiction and especially tolerance on the webz(that manual you posted @dotcomkotr, The Ashton Manual, was really helpful in that regard). And i've begun to worry a bit. As i've stated earlier i don't take d!@z every day, but i have taken them in larger and larger doses and for quite some time. Another thing i've begun to worry about, that i wasn't aware of, was that z0p1 seems to have cross-tolerance with bonz0s, which i wasn't aware of until recently (and i haven't had time to properly research z0p1 yet), but z0p1 is something i take very frequently, nearly every day of the week (about 15 mg each time). I have read that they aren't as strong as d1@z, but they will still build my tolerance if that't the case.

I hope that i'm not at the point where benz0s will no longer provide me any benefit, as after i stopped drinking, that's what i relied on to pull me through a major depressive episode, in addition to give me the confidence to leave the house. I get scared @Smoka90, when you say that the benefit may completely vanish. For now at least i've decided to stay off benz0s for a while, even if hit by a major depressive episode (and there's no telling when that'll happen) and try other solutions instead, tho there aren't many. Also decided to try to cut back on pain meds and try to bear the pain as best i can. I'll see how that goes.

Thanks for all the advice.