Benzo Hierarchy

[Smoka90]

@Jellopanda Oh crap... I didn't pick up on the zoppy that you said you take... yeah, they have a complete cross-tolerance... they have the same activity at the brain receptors. I mean, that would definitely explain why you've felt the need to take higher doses of di@z; the zop has constantly been raising your tolerance... It's not right that your doctor didn't tell you about the cross-tolerance...

But I think you can still turn the situation around. You seem to have discipline, and you can get it to a position where you get the benefits you need from benzohs. If you can go without benzohs for a little while (to reset your tolerance), that would be very good, but be careful. How long have you been taking zop? And is it 5-6 days a week you take it, roughly? You just might need to be careful with stopping it cold turkey.

There's quite a few things to help you sleep: promethazine, melatonin, valerian, but if you're used to zop they may seem quite mild...if you are going to go ahead with reducing z-drug and benzoh use, definitely have some kava on hand (but that doesn't mean you should suddenly quit cold turkey, if you've been taking it for a while).

There's no need to be scared, sometimes we all have times where it's time to take off the silk gloves and fight, and it's always worth it.

 

[Jellopanda]

@Jellopanda Oh crap... I didn't pick up on the zoppy that you said you take... yeah, they have a complete cross-tolerance... they have the same activity at the brain receptors. I mean, that would definitely explain why you've felt the need to take higher doses of di@z; the zop has constantly been raising your tolerance... It's not right that your doctor didn't tell you about the cross-tolerance...

But I think you can still turn the situation around. You seem to have discipline, and you can get it to a position where you get the benefits you need from benzohs. If you can go without benzohs for a little while (to reset your tolerance), that would be very good, but be careful. How long have you been taking zop? And is it 5-6 days a week you take it, roughly? You just might need to be careful with stopping it cold turkey.

There's quite a few things to help you sleep: promethazine, melatonin, valerian, but if you're used to zop they may seem quite mild...if you are going to go ahead with reducing z-drug and benzoh use, definitely have some kava on hand (but that doesn't mean you should suddenly quit cold turkey, if you've been taking it for a while).

There's no need to be scared, sometimes we all have times where it's time to take off the silk gloves and fight, and it's always worth it.

I've been on Z0p1 for nearly two years, and i felt like they were a heaven-send as they were pretty much the only thing that ensured sleep. Started with 7.5 mg, now i take 15 mg, and on occasion, when i feel i really need to get some sleep due to an appointment or something the day after i occasionally take 22,5 mg just to make sure. 30 mgs make me feel like crap the next day so i don't do that. I take zop on average 5 days a week roughly.

I've been looking into melatonin as it's something your brain naturally produces and seems relatively harmless. Gonna do some more research on that, also on the other things you mentioned. Especially kava, tho i have no idea how easy that is to get in norway, we fortunately have this site tho.

I feel fortunate to have found this site as i've learned a lot, things my doctor didn't even tell me. Thanks to everyone here in general.

 

[ElectroNymph]

I guess whether or not you take di@z daily is essential here. If you do, then I really wouldn't switch to anything else. If you're using benzohs daily, then d!@z is the most reliable option you can go for. It has a long half life which means that it would be easier to taper off from and you'd be less likely to get serious side effects from quitting, such as seizures. Although those things can still easily happen, it'd maybe be more likely with potent, short acting ones.

If you're looking for alternatives, then definitely look into kava, if you can get it. Don't discount it. I did for ages, then tried it, and it is so, so helpful. I have some instant kava kept by for emergencies. I used some last week when I went back to studying. I was very anxious but the kava helped so much; I only needed benzohs on one of the four days I was in. If you buy instant or micronised kava, you can put it into capsules without needing to make tea or anything.

It doesn't build a tolerance and has no withdrawal. Yes, it does exist! Sounds like the holy grail. It has a mild reverse tolerance, meaning the first few times you try it, it's not that noticable. But it gets useful quite quickly.

Let me know what you think of all that, I'd be happy to help more if I can. =)

I was taking a couple of Clonazopam daily because of its strength and long half-life, but then I read about how horrible it was to come off it, so switched to Diazepam. 

Clonazopam is geeat for general anxiety, and incredibly potent. Diazepam doesn't do the job, or alleviate the panic attacks as well, but it's easier to come off, and doesn't worry me as much.

 

[dotcomkot]

I was taking a couple of Clonazopam daily because of its strength and long half-life, but then I read about how horrible it was to come off it, so switched to Diazepam. 

Clonazopam is geeat for general anxiety, and incredibly potent. Diazepam doesn't do the job, or alleviate the panic attacks as well, but it's easier to come off, and doesn't worry me as much.

i take clons too that with xanies is only thing that stops my anxiety i take nitraz if i fancy a drowsy one an things are shit . but clons an xans. i just had too agree to the clinic today to stop all clons bar a few on standby if i do rattle hard. (i wont) wont let myself. an i eat a fair few tbf an she knows so that too

This is all so they will put me on 6 diaz a day . that not even the equivalent to the 2 clons i have when i wake lol an that 6ml is for my day?? i mean i aint gonna turn down 6 a day if she wants to script me but fuck that i went for help to help taper an now shes just topped me up. i dont want fuckin diaz as u said it doesnt sort anxiety its just a tolerenece builder an holder for me, i get im gonna need to taper over to diaz at some point but thats not the plan at min so dis arnt the answer plus gone from weekly pick up back to 3 times ffs after near 5 years of trust an no other dirty test bar what is prescribed even if half is sourced. 

people seeking help with clinics dont go off my experience some may be ur life line but these volunteers havent got a clue. i regularly correct half life, dosages an even remind then to test as i want them for proof.. they are a shit show. so i will resort back to dr ashton an taper myself. 

sorry rant over  @ElectroNymph lol bad day for me

 

[Smoka90]

I've been on Z0p1 for nearly two years, and i felt like they were a heaven-send as they were pretty much the only thing that ensured sleep. Started with 7.5 mg, now i take 15 mg, and on occasion, when i feel i really need to get some sleep due to an appointment or something the day after i occasionally take 22,5 mg just to make sure. 30 mgs make me feel like crap the next day so i don't do that. I take zop on average 5 days a week roughly.

I've been looking into melatonin as it's something your brain naturally produces and seems relatively harmless. Gonna do some more research on that, also on the other things you mentioned. Especially kava, tho i have no idea how easy that is to get in norway, we fortunately have this site tho.

I feel fortunate to have found this site as i've learned a lot, things my doctor didn't even tell me. Thanks to everyone here in general.

I think if you've been taking zop for nearly two years, five days a week, you might need to be careful about reducing benzo use. Also, just have it in your head that zop = benzoh. It pretty much is, in terms of effects, tolerance and withdrawal. If you want to reduce use, it might be an idea to very, very gradually reduce your use of zop (of course, only you can decide if that's what you want).

I want to give some advice, but I don't want it to sound like I'm being arrogant and bossing you around...but I just wanted to say, if I were you, I would (if possible) stop use of all the other benzohs, and then very, very gradually reduce the zop over time. Perhaps while you're doing that, you could use other things that will help you sleep. Melatonin should be very easy to buy (never used it personally). You could buy ground valerian root, stuff it in a few capsules; that may help. I also looked up kava legality in Europe, and I think you'll be fine. There's no vendors in Europe, but I regularly buy mine from the States and have had no issues at all.

And don't forget, if you manage to pull all this off, get your tolerance down etc., then you'll be able to get the full benefits of benzohs when you only use them 1-2 times a week. =)

I'm just going to do a little shout out for @PTFC : is it okay if I mention the kava vendor that I use, just to help out Jellopanda?

 

[PTFC]

@Smoka90, no problem whatsoever! 

 

[dotcomkot]

I smoke w33d but it makes my anxiety worse I eat more xa@ani3s

 

[Smoka90]

I've been given the go-ahead, so I can say @Jellopanda , the vendor I use is Kalm with Kava. They have a pretty cheesy name but their products are very good, and I've had no problem getting them posted here. The postage can be a bit expensive, so you might need to plan your order. If I were you, I'd just get the micronised types first - they're easier. You can just put them into a capsule (which is very handy) or mix it into a drink (but that can be a bit gross).

There's different types, and they effect everyone a bit differently, but I like the Vanuatu types (Borogu and...Borongoru (or something like that)), they are a little more sedating. The Tongan one is better for daytime, and I'm not too sold on the Fiji type, although most say it's their favourite one. I think their stock levels are a bit all over the place at the moment, but they should be back in stock with everything soon.

I need to say, though, I saw kratom mentioned a couple of posts ago, but I wouldn't categorise it as a harmless remedy. I mean, I don't think it's particularly toxic, but it does act as an op!od, so it does build a similar pattern of tolerance and withdrawal. It's more mild than WDs from traditional op!@tes, but still nothing to be scoffed at...

 

[Jellopanda]

I think if you've been taking zop for nearly two years, five days a week, you might need to be careful about reducing benzo use. Also, just have it in your head that zop = benzoh. It pretty much is, in terms of effects, tolerance and withdrawal. If you want to reduce use, it might be an idea to very, very gradually reduce your use of zop (of course, only you can decide if that's what you want).

I want to give some advice, but I don't want it to sound like I'm being arrogant and bossing you around...but I just wanted to say, if I were you, I would (if possible) stop use of all the other benzohs, and then very, very gradually reduce the zop over time. Perhaps while you're doing that, you could use other things that will help you sleep. Melatonin should be very easy to buy (never used it personally). You could buy ground valerian root, stuff it in a few capsules; that may help. I also looked up kava legality in Europe, and I think you'll be fine. There's no vendors in Europe, but I regularly buy mine from the States and have had no issues at all.

And don't forget, if you manage to pull all this off, get your tolerance down etc., then you'll be able to get the full benefits of benzohs when you only use them 1-2 times a week. =)

I'm just going to do a little shout out for @PTFC : is it okay if I mention the kava vendor that I use, just to help out Jellopanda?

If anyone noticed that i was very active on this forum for about three weeks or so and then suddenly disappeared, then that was because the day after i took a 100 mg dose of d!@z in the space of just a couple of hours, i did the same thing the next day. I was feeling very anxious and at the same time eager to test out the new product. That turned out to be a really bad idea. Most i've taken before was 40 mg in a day. For the next three days i felt completely out of it. I felt exhausted, very dizzy, trouble thinking clearly, had slurred speech and had to concentrate on walking straight. The only thing positive i can say about it was that it was a powerful lesson. I haven't had a hangover like that since my alcohol days.

It's made me rethink a couple of things and come to some decisions, greatly aided by the advice of the people on this thread. I've decided to stay of di@z for a while, even if things get bad (though that'll be challenging if things really hit me hard), and i've decided to reduce my z0pi from 15 mg to 7,5 mg.  Look for some prescription-free alternatives or talk to my doctor about some very mild sleeping aids. Pretty much exactly as you suggested @Smoka90. Also, thanks a lot for the kava site, i'll definitely look into that, and thanks to all the rest for your advice.

I do want to have the benefit of benz0s in the future, and right now i feel the spectre of addiction and high tolerance looming over me. I think i just might be putting myself through a tough time here, but it seems that in the long term it will benefit me greatly.

 

[PTFC]

If anyone noticed that i was very active on this forum for about three weeks or so and then suddenly disappeared, then that was because the day after i took a 100 mg dose of d!@z in the space of just a couple of hours, i did the same thing the next day. I was feeling very anxious and at the same time eager to test out the new product. That turned out to be a really bad idea. Most i've taken before was 40 mg in a day. For the next three days i felt completely out of it. I felt exhausted, very dizzy, trouble thinking clearly, had slurred speech and had to concentrate on walking straight. The only thing positive i can say about it was that it was a powerful lesson. I haven't had a hangover like that since my alcohol days.

It's made me rethink a couple of things and come to some decisions, greatly aided by the advice of the people on this thread. I've decided to stay of di@z for a while, even if things get bad (though that'll be challenging if things really hit me hard), and i've decided to reduce my z0pi from 15 mg to 7,5 mg.  Look for some prescription-free alternatives or talk to my doctor about some very mild sleeping aids. Pretty much exactly as you suggested @Smoka90. Also, thanks a lot for the kava site, i'll definitely look into that, and thanks to all the rest for your advice.

I do want to have the benefit of benz0s in the future, and right now i feel the spectre of addiction and high tolerance looming over me. I think i just might be putting myself through a tough time here, but it seems that in the long term it will benefit me greatly.

Be very cautious @Jellopanda, if you have been taking these for some time, you may have a tolerance or dependence, just stopping them altogether could be dangerous. I'd certainly consider talking with your GP first of all if this is the case. We don't want you to be in any danger!

 

[Jellopanda]

@PTFC. I've reconsidered quitting di@z entirely in fact. I've been taking about 10-20 mg a day, but plan giving them a break altogether for a longer period of time after that. Came through that conclusion after reading this forum and some of the literature posted here. Ashtons's Manual posted by @dotcomkotr was very helpful.

@Nikolas. As i said in our private conversation i went through an episode. It only lasted a few days so i guess it's what they call an intermittent depressive episode, not a major depressive episode which has to last two weeks or longer, though i get those as well. The DSM can't seem to find good definitions they agree on.

Not to sound dramatic or because i want sympathy, in fact, that's the last thing i want. And i know there are many here who are in a similar position or worse off than me, but I'm going to be completely open and honest, because i think that sharing difficult things with people in similar situations and not tip-toeing around them (which i feel can happen sometimes even on this forum) is one of the best things one can do for both parts, you and myself. 

Firstly, Nikolas, it was not an attempt at self harm, i used to do that, but because of the way i am, i did it very carefully, with a sterile scalpel and water and disinfectant, cutting surgically neat in less obvious places and to leave minimal scaring, but gradually deeper and deeper until i got the pain and distraction i needed, but making sure i didn't go so deep as to hit any major arteries. I would then staunch the blood flow, apply butterfly bandages and after clean the wound or wounds and change bandages and dressings a couple of times a day as long as needed (which also provided a distraction). Through the help of several great psychologists, psychiatrists and nurses i don't do that anymore, not for many years now. I believe benz0s also has played a part in getting through the times where i was prone to doing such things.

Also Nikolas, I am very fortunate in the respect that i have several very good friends, of the kind where i know we will do anything for each other and for life, but when i have a major episode, going outside, meeting friends or trying to have a good time is entirely impossible for me, though i think for many those are good suggestions. The best i can manage is lying in a fetus position in my bed, not eating, washing or doing anything really, except cry a lot and trying to provoke pain by applying hard pressure to nerve centers in my body. If you have little or no experience with this kind of behavior, you may think that, because of the self-harm and provoking pain in this manner, means i'm some kinda masochist who enjoys pain, and why then the pain medication i take for my physiological condition. You must remember that i'm going through a major depressive episode and in these circumstances the pain is preferable, distracting, welcome even compared to what's in my head. When i am my normal self, the pain can be excruciating.

I hope i didn't go too far in my descriptions, writing this post was very difficult for me and i've shared things i only share with my closest friends and psychiatrist, but i already trust the people here.

I'm sorry for having brought this topic entirely off track.

 

[Smoka90]

@Jellopanda I can tell you're such a kind soul, please, please be careful and look after yourself. Please. =(

Like PTFC said and I did earlier, avoid cold turkey (seizures can happen, and they're so, so hellish).

Please be careful. Much love.

If you need any other help, advice, or just to rant, don't hesitate to PM me.

Stay safe friend, please.

 

[Jellopanda]

Thank you for your concern @Smoka90, it is very touching. I believe that the sympathy and care you show me is more effective for someone like me than any drug.

You are one of several people i have found and connected with on this site who have shown me that there are very kind and altruistic people in the world who have the admirable quality to care deeply about someone they've known for a relatively short period of time.

I'm grateful to have found this place

 

[Smoka90]

@Jellopanda It's no problem at all. And you're right that sympathy can be more effective (particularly in the long term) than any substances. In the long-term, most substances are bound to stab you in the back, but genuine human sympathy will never do that.

And yeah, this site is one of a kind. What stands out for me the most is that it is completely non-judgemental. That word gets bandied about a lot, but on most forums there's name-calling, bullying, things like that. It is insanely rare to get a forum like this that completely lacks those things. One of a kind place.

 

[Jellopanda]

Somewhat back to the topic of the thread. D1@z is mild and effective for me in those situations i mentioned where i need to be social, though i'm trying to taper down as mentioned.

However when i get hit by those episodes i mentioned it feel like i need something else. Something relaxing, and euphoria or something close to it helps a lot. I think it was you @Smoka90 who mentioned et1zol@m and brom@z, but i've done some research and had many private conversation with several people and on the Benz0 hierarchy as this thread was named, these seem relatively mild.

I was thinking i might need something stronger. I don't want to develop a tolerance or addiction to benz0s, but remember that this will only be used for short amounts of time, from a couple of days to two weeks or possibly three at worst. In this regard Nitr@z and Tem@z was suggested. I don't know if people have any thoughts on this.

I have found out i can get both melatonin and kava from my doctor btw. Gonna ask him about it. I may get it for free if it's on what we call a blue script in norway.

 

[Smoka90]

@Jellopanda It's always a bit difficult to distinguish between things like 'potent' and 'strong'. I mean...Nitr@z isn't that potent (since it comes in tablets of 5mg, as opposed to 0.5mg or something), but its actual effects are quite strong. It is actually my favourite one, by a long, long, loooong way. For that reason I'd exercise some caution with it. I'm able to keep temptation at bay, but for you it could be playing with fire. I think a good rule is if you're happy with what you're taking, don't start trying other things. But I know from experience that's a very difficult thing to do... I don't have loads of experience with tem@z, but I think it's in the same league as nitr@z, just a slightly shorter half life. But those two examples are both hypnotics, might not be the best thing for the daytime...

I think et!zol@m can be quite strong, in doses of around 2mg or so...but it's all so subjective...

Just be careful with tem@z and nitr@z, seriously. They have pretty tempting colours...

 

[Jellopanda]

As i think i mentioned i ordered sample packs og both brom@z and et!z0 so i'll check those out first, but i see you can get samples of nitr@z as well so i may order after a while to try to find what works best. We're talking about those relatively short periods where i hit rock bottom here ofc and then di@z may as well be m&m's or something for the effect they give me.

But you're right i need to be careful. I can get very tempted to just go all out when things are bad and i sometimes do.

Something called Flun!tr@zep@m or something was mentioned as well, but i can't find them anywhere.

Going to my doctor tuesday, he may give me free kava

 

[Smoka90]

Of course, I understand you need stronger things when you hit rock bottom. It's just you're such a kind person...and the worst things always happen to the best people. That's why I want you to be safe.

Erm, flunitr@z...yeeeah. I haven't got round to trying it yet, but it's pretty hardcore. Very long half life, but apparantly way more blissful (and potent) than nitr@z. But it terms of safety, it's very bad. Personally, I'd try and avoid it, as tempting as it may be. It has a reputation for being used as a 'date rape' drug. Obviously date rape is sick, disgusting, evil in every sense, but I've read that not many cases of it were found where flunitr@z were used... but of course, the date rape drug of all time iiiiiis...you guessed it: alcohol.

But it's rare, very expensive...can be very dangerous; people do all sorts of crazy things on them. I don't think I'll ever try them, and I'd suggest you steer clear of it.

Stay safe. =)

Oh, and free kava! Hoooow?! You're so lucky! Definitely take up that offer! Let me know what type of kava it is. If it's extract, I think they *can* be a bit iffy, so let me know..

 

[Jellopanda]

Of course, I understand you need stronger things when you hit rock bottom. It's just you're such a kind person...and the worst things always happen to the best people. That's why I want you to be safe.

Erm, flunitr@z...yeeeah. I haven't got round to trying it yet, but it's pretty hardcore. Very long half life, but apparantly way more blissful (and potent) than nitr@z. But it terms of safety, it's very bad. Personally, I'd try and avoid it, as tempting as it may be. It has a reputation for being used as a 'date rape' drug. Obviously date rape is sick, disgusting, evil in every sense, but I've read that not many cases of it were found where flunitr@z were used... but of course, the date rape drug of all time iiiiiis...you guessed it: alcohol.

But it's rare, very expensive...can be very dangerous; people do all sorts of crazy things on them. I don't think I'll ever try them, and I'd suggest you steer clear of it.

Stay safe. =)

Oh, and free kava! Hoooow?! You're so lucky! Definitely take up that offer! Let me know what type of kava it is. If it's extract, I think they *can* be a bit iffy, so let me know..

I don't think i've been able to find any flunitr@z anyway, kinda tempted to try, but i'll remember your advice about being careful. About temptation, i went ahead and ordered sample packs of pretty much every benz0 there is (or that i could find anyway) , just to try to find out what will work best for me, the weigh pros and cons and find one to three os something that i stick to in the future, but i will try my absolute best to be careful and do things in moderation, read about everything before i try them and so on.

I know that i have this addict in me tho that is hard to control sometimes so it's somewhat risky. Doing my best to build control and discipline.

Alcohol seems to be at the top of the list for so many bad things. I'm very glad i'm off that stuff, and my life has improved immeasurably since i quit.

Going to my GP tomorrow, his nurse hadn't heard of it before so i'll talk to him. Lotsa meds are free in norway if you get it from your doctor.

 

[Smoka90]

@Jellopanda  Flunitr@z might be best being avoided altogether really. I think its potency's bad. I've always got a little suicidal angel at the back of my mind that makes me think of methods of going, and flunitr@z would probably be on there. It's incredible to think that I could mix a few different things in one 00 sized empty capsule that would finish me off very quickly. It's the potent RC benzohs that are bad like that, too. That's why I always warn people about Clonazolam and Flubromazolam. If I put 200mg of f'lam in a cap, with a strong fennt analogue, it would kill me very, very quickly. The scary (?) thing is they're available in powders. I've never tried or even owned any of those things, but the fact they're out there is an interesting point.

I guess my point there is...avoid RC benzohs...

If you genuinely want to live a good, long, happy and healthy life, that would be your best weapon against addiction and for self-improvement. It's when people think that they have nothing much, or nothing at all, to live for that severe things happen. So my point is, identify what happiness you want to reach, and acknowledge...that you can get there easier with less addiction issues...

If you were going to ask your GP about flunitr@z, he might think you're only after strong stuff, so just be careful not to get on the wrong side of him. I'm always a passive bootlicker when I see my GP.

Sorry if this didn't make sense, my head's in a bit of a mess, but I hope it helped a bit...