Long-term/nightly Use

[Rishi678]

Hi guys,

First off, thanks to everyone for making this a very helpful and informative and non-judgemental forum.

I have had trouble sleeping since I was young and in the last few years with a huge life change, it has gotten worse.

I have been using bennies 1-2 times a week when I am tossing and turning at like 5am in the morning for the last few years.

Tolerance and physical dependence have not been an issue because the relatively low doses and the relatively low frequency of use. I have taken weeks off at a time just to make sure of this.

Two years ago I began to smoke Medical Marijuana before bed and that has helped a lot, but recently not as well, as I am waking up in the night and not able to get back to sleep.

However, on some days I really feel fed up, especially when my sleep goes to sh*t for an entire week or so at a time.

Anyone with insomnia can relate to this feeling. Frustration, isolation, depression. And it builds up the longer I go through these rough patches.

I have gotten to the point where I am considering using a z drug or something like Halci0n more frequently and even nightly.

As I say the reason is that it really gets rough always worrying about not sleeping. I could have a great day, be happy fulfilled and content, and excited to go on with life, but alas, after 12 hours of not sleeping I am drained of all of that. It really is an issue.

My question:

Is there anyone on this forum who has used z drugs of Halci0N long-term/nightly? Have you noticed any tolerance? What about if you decide to take a break now and again, do you notice withdrawals? I heard that the dependency is less serious with these drugs as they have such a short halflife. I have read many positive stories from people who use them nightly even up to 30 years, and some not so positive ones too. I would be happy to hear people's experience with using these drugs nightly/long-term.

Thank you guys!

Rishi

 

[Biteme]

If you're taking any benzo regularly for a good length of time you will have withdrawal effects. I have sleep issues as well and I try not to use benzs more than 2 or 3 nights a week & then use baclofen on the other nights, and am looking to try other possibilities once or twice a week. 

 

[Rishi678]

Thanks.. I was thinking of rotating with Phenibut, but it seems phenibut also hits some GABAa receptors too so that doesn't sounds like a good idea.

Baclofen only hits GABAb correct so there is no cross tolerance? Is it good for sleep?

Also have you noticed any tolerance or withdrawal issues taking bennies 2-3 times a week? I have not so far after three years but curious to hear others' experiences.

 

[Biteme]

By bennies I'm guessing you mean something other than what we used to call bennies (benz@drine, an upper)--I was wondering about that, cause I expected that would f-up your sleep patterns. Baclofen is a Gaba-b agonist only--it's better than a benz for helping you stay asleep but not as great for falling asleep, still it does the trick for me. I haven't had any noticeable tolerance from benzos on that schedule, but I've been only at it for about 6 months. The problem is the urge to try it more often, but I'm trying to keep to a schedule. Phenibut will work too, but I've had some bad reactions to pushing the dose on that too high & I think it more likely to cause dependence than baclofen. Baclofen, for instance, doesn't produce tolerance. There are people who take the same dose for years without diminishing effect.

 

[Rishi678]

Hi, yes I meant Benzos, sorry for the confusion.

Thanks for the response, I might research Baclofen as an alternative sleep aid, if nothing else helps.

 

[ElectroNymph]

Mido...lam or brot..iz are very effective for immediate sleep, but also unfortunately pricey. D has them in email section. 

I have the mido's, work like a charm.

 

[SaintAlien]

I was on triazolam / halcion for 8 years because I was in college and I could sleep / wake up refreshed with only 4 hours. fastest shortest life span. D's are amazing and I use them and stillnox (not american ambien). Here's the deal:

It's till in the benzo family and there IS withdrawal

Also Ambien seems to cause depression (severe in some) plus tripping balls (fun! provided you stay home and don't call)

Triazolam is for short term use and is an OLD med, first designed for pilots in war time due to the short life span and no grogginess.

I have tried everything as I have a calcified pituitary gland from opiates (and I can't sleep without meds). I tried the SSRI's or the crap like trazadone, weird things I don't recall and even parkinson meds! all from a neurologist. finally I went to D - worth it.

FDA changed the formulation in ambien years ago as it's classified as a "date-rape" drug.  Stillnox (overseas version) is the real formulation. Here it is changed and the side effects are icky (for me at least).

On a UA test it comes back on a 7 panel as a benzo

higher panels will have it in the Z class but triazolam is a benzo on both I think.  this is why pharmacies in the us will NOT script your sleep aide and benzo together. Insurance policy and DEA regulations.  You might be able to pay out of pocket for one but if you're on state or gov aide, you're never to pay for your scripts and it's a federal offense.

 

[rxpro]

Halcion was by far the most effective for me, the M.D I had for over a decade retired & his replacement was quick to start the "Z" family. I found the "Z" class is not effective @ all & comes w/ some nasty s/e's. Baclofen is use full for some. I take it for M.S. & Yes there is a w/d syndrome w/ both the Benzo's & "Z" class. Even to a lessor degree high doses of the Baclofen.

 

[Rishi678]

Thanks so much for the info guys

I sort of figured as much, though weird how some people claim to be able to take z drugs or halci0n for years and report minimal withdrawals, but kind of sounds too good to be true.

 

[SaintAlien]

There's no way I believe them - at all. Unless they take it once every 2 weeks or 3 days a month - no way.  Benzo's and Z's build new pathways in our brains for neurons. The transmitters seek the drug and it's not there so it misfires, causing the seizures and all the mental withdrawal from those meds. That's why it's deadly to cold turkey withdrawal 

 

[Nostromo1965]

My question:

Is there anyone on this forum who has used z drugs of Halci0N long-term/nightly? Have you noticed any tolerance? What about if you decide to take a break now and again, do you notice withdrawals? I heard that the dependency is less serious with these drugs as they have such a short halflife. I have read many positive stories from people who use them nightly even up to 30 years, and some not so positive ones too. I would be happy to hear people's experience with using these drugs nightly/long-term.

Thank you guys!

Rishi

I've been taking 10mg of a certain z-med (trade name begins with an A) every night for the past 3 years and have developed no tolerance whatsoever. Not sure about the benzo Halci0N, though. I've heard horror stories about the withdrawal from those.

Hope this helps!

The Dude

 

[a360]

ive tried every z drug and still take them as a night time ritual. they have never helped me sleep, I came off Zolpidem onto zopiclone last week, I personally don't get any effects, hence supplement benzos from Jim, its so difficult to not take medication when you toss and turn all night, sometimes I have 3 nights with zero sleep. my doc gave me a years repeat prescription of zopiclones last week, I came out of the surgery and ordered some xans... uk doctors really don't care about it, they say take a bath before bed etc or Mirtazipine, thats useless too for severe insomnia. 

As for your first question, ive taken them since 2006 coming from tamazipam and moggies, I'm still healthy and have no depression etc, I'm just knackered !

I feel for you

 

[Leigh Anne]

Hi guys,

First off, thanks to everyone for making this a very helpful and informative and non-judgemental forum.

I have had trouble sleeping since I was young and in the last few years with a huge life change, it has gotten worse.

I have been using bennies 1-2 times a week when I am tossing and turning at like 5am in the morning for the last few years.

Tolerance and physical dependence have not been an issue because the relatively low doses and the relatively low frequency of use. I have taken weeks off at a time just to make sure of this.

Two years ago I began to smoke Medical Marijuana before bed and that has helped a lot, but recently not as well, as I am waking up in the night and not able to get back to sleep.

However, on some days I really feel fed up, especially when my sleep goes to sh*t for an entire week or so at a time.

Anyone with insomnia can relate to this feeling. Frustration, isolation, depression. And it builds up the longer I go through these rough patches.

I have gotten to the point where I am considering using a z drug or something like Halci0n more frequently and even nightly.

As I say the reason is that it really gets rough always worrying about not sleeping. I could have a great day, be happy fulfilled and content, and excited to go on with life, but alas, after 12 hours of not sleeping I am drained of all of that. It really is an issue.

My question:

Is there anyone on this forum who has used z drugs of Halci0N long-term/nightly? Have you noticed any tolerance? What about if you decide to take a break now and again, do you notice withdrawals? I heard that the dependency is less serious with these drugs as they have such a short halflife. I have read many positive stories from people who use them nightly even up to 30 years, and some not so positive ones too. I would be happy to hear people's experience with using these drugs nightly/long-term.

Thank you guys!

Rishi

Rishi, I have similar problems with sleep--at one time my depression was so bad and ill-treated that I stayed in bed pretty much for over a year; would shamble from bed to living room couch, then back to bed.  Absolutely no quality of life.  Found good psychiatrist, one that looks at you, listens, gives feedback, makes suggestions, and tries exhaustively to help me--finally, a doctor that sits down and pays attention to me and isn't typing into a computer, or flipping through charts or other paperwork & rushing me out...Now, this has taken a few years, but I am relatively stable (still an agoraphobic, but not waking up dead every day).  I have a "fast drug metabolism"--when I have procedures/tests, I try telling the anesthesiologist this (I suggest they go to the zoo and get a tranquilizer dart they use on tigers and gorillas when they need to be checked over or transported and need the animal unconscious..., but they all laugh, thinking I am joking--I am not, however).  Sadly, tolerance so high that during a Transesophageal Echo, a cardiac cath, and some gastrointestinal procedures, I'm told to relax, count backwards, and am told I will wake up in recovery.  Instead, I count backwards, I do feel a bit of drowsiness, but not unconcious--still lucid.  I even woke up during a surgical procedure in the past.  During my TEE (camera down your esophagus so they can see your heart from the back (check valves, openings of cardiac arteries/blood flow, ejection fraction, etc), I was up to 14-16 mg of Ver$ed IV push, a ton of Fent@nyl, still wide awake & trying to talk around my bite block--nurse had to acquire a second box of  sedatives as he had burned through their cart, and still had a fully conscious patient.  Ended up rec'g 24 mg of Ver$ed, hundreds of micrograms of Fent@nyl, & still fully awake.  My option was to proceed & they would try to make me more comfortable, or stop procedure & come back and have it done under general anesthetic.  Got it done, & could have tapped danced out of recovery; my point being that sometimes you need a "soup" of meds.  What fixed the worst of my depression was a med not FDA approved for depression in US ; it is an ADD/ADHD drug called Adder@ll--I believe it saved my life; as I started it, I was feeling doubtful, but had gone even through shock treatments that did not help my depression, but effectively wiped out my long-term and short-term memory. Anyway, while Adder@ll being slowly increased, I found suddenly that I could get the dishes done, knock out that load of clothes, take back the bill paying responsibilities, etc. The cost, however, of taking a "speedy drug", meant sleep time very difficult.  So I set alarm for about 9 am, take all the Addy's at that time (if spaced out through day, more sleep problems..), along with 1 X@nax (2 mg four times daily).  Remain on other antidepressants, Busp@r also for anxiety, then just my usual meds for my heart (diuretics), GI issues, miscellaneous.  My point here is that I have taken my scripts (2 X's at bedtime, Amb!en CR, a couple of antihistamines (OTC)--they potentiate the effects of the prescribed meds, & my muscle relaxers,my antinausea medications, also sometimes I get "by with a little help from my friends" as the Beatles sang so long ago (just got some great vitamins from PPE).  But you also need to be on a strict sleep schedule. For me, NO caffiene after 6 pm, bedroom clean, quiet, & orderly (NO TV, no eating in bed, no electronics in bedroom, tasks around home completed in afternoon (so you are not fretting over the dirty clothes on the floor or whatever). No acidity containing food/drink after 6 PM or so (so no spaghetti sauce, no orange juice, no spicy foods--indigestion absolutely affects your ability to get quality sleep), comfortable pillows, I like a cool room so I can snuggle up in comforters.  Sometimes some "white noise" (my alarm clock has ocean sounds, etc).  Also, if you want to fight with people, or have negative persons in your life, have it out during the daytime--not when you are trying to start shutting down in the evening).  I only telepathically fight with my husband in the evening, & dodge calls from subversive people after dinnertime.  Nice light blocking curtains, a book, comfortable clothes/pajamas/whatever, and a relatively quiet atmosphere (and dark), & that is how I get by.  Also, you may want to ensure that you don't have sleep apnea (do you snore, or overweight?--that will keep you exhausted, as well).  Sorry for the thesis, but I hope this helps--or maybe so long and boring this will put you to sleep-HA! Doc has some P@x vals at a good price that certainly come in handy, too...Best of luck (what you wrote really moved me as I can relate to the sleeplessness, and what havoc being tired can affect of your life--really a vicious cycle).  Love and Laughter, Leigh Anne

 

[Andy Monroe]

I started taking x@nax in 1994, 1/2 - 1mg/night for exactly what you (@rishi678) had been experiencing: "frustration, isolation, depression".  Was not aware of any of the different classes of meds, etc.  Felt my life changed!  Finally.  Dr. said take periodically to get into a "pattern" - only when needed.  Well, that turned into nightly pretty soon, because at 2AM it's really too late to be taking those, and also be ready to go in the morning.   Fast forward, 2013, bumped from 1mg to ~2mg, and now it's clonazeepam.  Don't recall why Dr. switched me over, and didn't care - same effect.  Dr. told me I'd likely be on them for life unless I was committed to getting off somehow, but he'd had other patients taking many more/day. As long as I was OK with the dependency, I'd be OK.  Tried many non-narc alternatives to get off, nothing worked for me...

So, all those years (almost 20) and tolerance never got to point where I needed to take steadily increasing doses.  Some nights I couldn't sleep very well on 1 mg (not 2), but no one does every night, and I didn't really want to increase my dose.  Unfortunately, around  2010 I had started taking hydros, quickly escalating to 6 10/325 a day.  When I realized I had to shut that down, the Dr. told me I had to get off the clons altogether.  Period.

I should point out that my relationship with benzos and opees has always been entirely different.  I tried to explain to my new doc I could manage the benzos, needed them for a "real life", would never abuse (my definition of abuse) - unlike the opees that had me hostage.  He explained this is how people ended up as statistics, etc. (taking both @ same time).

So, the withdrawals....  Noone explained to me that dropping benzos would result in withdrawals.  But, I started have periods where I felt I couldn't breathe.  I'd have to pull my car over, thinking it was a heart attack, not wanting to put other drivers in danger.  Never had seizures or anything, just extreme panic issues and catching my breath, and hoping my heart rythms would settle down and the grip would loosen on my body.  I had started on subs (subox), and thought they were causing the heart/breathing issues.  Dr. told me it was the benzos, and it took me many months - looking back - to believe him.  I thought the withdrawal would basically = no sleep.

So, I suppose my point is, IMO you can take the benzos indefinitely as long - as you're OK with the dependency and aware of how body reacts to stopping them.  The "issues" by the way, didn't surface until weeks after I stopped taking them, and lasted 6 - 9 months I'd say.   I know many members here develop a much different relationship with them then I did - no or little control, escalation.  That was my issue with pain meds, not the benzos, so maybe it's being honest with yourself about what is improving quality of life and what is destructive.

 

[Leigh Anne]

I started taking x@nax in 1994, 1/2 - 1mg/night for exactly what you (@rishi678) had been experiencing: "frustration, isolation, depression".  Was not aware of any of the different classes of meds, etc.  Felt my life changed!  Finally.  Dr. said take periodically to get into a "pattern" - only when needed.  Well, that turned into nightly pretty soon, because at 2AM it's really too late to be taking those, and also be ready to go in the morning.   Fast forward, 2013, bumped from 1mg to ~2mg, and now it's clonazeepam.  Don't recall why Dr. switched me over, and didn't care - same effect.  Dr. told me I'd likely be on them for life unless I was committed to getting off somehow, but he'd had other patients taking many more/day. As long as I was OK with the dependency, I'd be OK.  Tried many non-narc alternatives to get off, nothing worked for me...

So, all those years (almost 20) and tolerance never got to point where I needed to take steadily increasing doses.  Some nights I couldn't sleep very well on 1 mg (not 2), but no one does every night, and I didn't really want to increase my dose.  Unfortunately, around  2010 I had started taking hydros, quickly escalating to 6 10/325 a day.  When I realized I had to shut that down, the Dr. told me I had to get off the clons altogether.  Period.

I should point out that my relationship with benzos and opees has always been entirely different.  I tried to explain to my new doc I could manage the benzos, needed them for a "real life", would never abuse (my definition of abuse) - unlike the opees that had me hostage.  He explained this is how people ended up as statistics, etc. (taking both @ same time).

So, the withdrawals....  Noone explained to me that dropping benzos would result in withdrawals.  But, I started have periods where I felt I couldn't breathe.  I'd have to pull my car over, thinking it was a heart attack, not wanting to put other drivers in danger.  Never had seizures or anything, just extreme panic issues and catching my breath, and hoping my heart rythms would settle down and the grip would loosen on my body.  I had started on subs (subox), and thought they were causing the heart/breathing issues.  Dr. told me it was the benzos, and it took me many months - looking back - to believe him.  I thought the withdrawal would basically = no sleep.

So, I suppose my point is, IMO you can take the benzos indefinitely as long - as you're OK with the dependency and aware of how body reacts to stopping them.  The "issues" by the way, didn't surface until weeks after I stopped taking them, and lasted 6 - 9 months I'd say.   I know many members here develop a much different relationship with them then I did - no or little control, escalation.  That was my issue with pain meds, not the benzos, so maybe it's being honest with yourself about what is improving quality of life and what is destructive.

Absolutely have to safely, medically detox from both benzo's and op pain meds--even taking for a week after something like a surgery, you can still have withdrawals.  Always must taper dosages of scheduled medications--DT's, dope sick, seizures; the whole gamut, and not just unpleasant, but potentially deadly, as well.  Good point, very glad you wrote this.  I very glibly throw out there the enormous amounts of what I take, & I would never mean to suggest for another to take my "soup"--this med list came about after many years of experimentation by a fabulous, caring doctor;  I did not just stroll in and get prescribed Addy's or large amounts of benzos.  I also always make certain other physicians (cardiologist, pulmonologist, internal med, GI, etc. are all aware of what I do take; I do use an occasional vitamin supplement from a vendor I trust on this site for emergencies--always good to have a couple things on hand for those rainy days...).  So kids, don't try this at home.  Any benzo, opiate, whatever can create an addiction, and if used over a longer period of time, I believe a hospital  monitored detox is the safest route to go....I am also wanting to point out that the other meds you take for even unrelated issues can affect the absorption of other meds.  I got off heartburn meds, and realized they had been affecting absorption, & I needed decreased dosages of other meds--even an empty stomach vs taking a vitamin after eating will potentially change it's effects.  I also take iron and fiber, and have found I have space all these out during the course of the day. So relieved that you caught that and commented.  If I just quit taking my X's, I would be nasty dope sick, so physically my body is addicted, but I need them along with the speedier stuff to function at all, so I anticipate being on these in some form for the rest of my life, so I don't mind being an "addict"; I am still a  "Boo Radley" type personality, but at least I am able to function inside of my home, sleep, and my thoughts are much less morbid and I am more tolerable as a human being (especially now that I have identified the "cocktail" of meds I need to do these things appropriately).  Happy (and safe!) Holidays to all.  Leigh Anne.  (Gotta remember to come back and make a donation to the site--until I found this page, I had been ripped off ridiculously; I so appreciate the help I have discovered through this group....it's a hard world out there, and full of scammers and disreputable vendors....)

 

[Shadowinside2020]

Glad I read this. Thank you for starting this thread @Rishi678...I’ve battled this for over 20 years and to this day, I avg about 2-3.5 hrs of sleep a night, or a few days on end wide awake. 

Doc said yrs ago I was bi-polar, I highly doubt that, but to combat the diagnosis and my insomnia, he started me on seroqu€l, and quickly jacked me to 8oo mgeez of IR. I felt like I was going to die every night before I went to bed. Horrifying and terrible leg spasms...fast forward few years, new doc. Reduced the d0sage to 25o XR. That and a little MM conc€ntrat€s...eases me into sleep. Staying a sleep is my issue. I may try some of these suggestions. Yes, I love my stims, but I’m always sure to cease usage each day at a certain time to attempt sleep  

Namaste all!

Jstew318

 

[Leigh Anne]

I had been given the suggestion of trying out Kr@tom--I had never heard of this, but after some research, I saw that the different strains have different properties--some help more with anxiety, others with pain, but that all pretty much induced some relaxation/contentment feelings.  Bought a largish batch with a number of strains.  Tried toss and wash, used the empty capsules you can buy to add the powder to so you don't have to taste it, but every one I tried (and relatively small amounts since this was new for me)--I got incredibly nauseated, by force and by phenerg@n/zofr@n, I managed to keep down at least long enough for that to be absorbed--got no sensations of anything other than my GI tract wants to explode, and after a couple hours w/o any noticable good effect, allowed myself to vomit, and OMG-sweet, sweet relief....Fast forward, tried one more time--figured different scheduled meds on board, other changes--same effect--violent vomiting...Ended up giving everything to my brother in law with the "caveat emptor" re. the nausea, etc.  Guess what? He and a girlfriend got mad high, felt great, & he got some leg (and more, too, if you know what I'm saying...)--they went through every packet, got benefit from every one, and wanted more! Couldn't believe it--just goes to show what works for me might not be ideal for you, but it does take careful experimentation (safely), to figure out what your body tolerates...LA