Lumbar Epidural Injections And General Back Pain

[beta-boy]

I went down this road years ago.  Docs kept wanting to do more and more facet blocks and the rhiz and the rfa.

Nothing on my MRI.  I did a few blocks, but stopped the docs there.   I could tell they had no real idea what was causing me pain.

I had tried everything ... yoga, doctors, accupunture, chiros ...

Then a friend finally recommended a doctor.  But it turned out to be another chiro.  

I was about to bolt out of his office, when he just started immediately telling me what was wrong with me and why I felt the pain I did.

After one treatment, my facet pain was 80% gone.  I still had plenty of other pain.

Over a couple years of persistent stretching, and treatments I am much much better.

Get away from the pain docs and the surgeons.  Find a good Old School chiro.  One that does deep tissue work as well as the adjustments.

That book is successful because 70% of back problems resolves themselves.  And most by moderate stretching.

However, the true cause of 90% or more of lower back pain (including disc problems) is found in the Sacro-Illiac joints.  They are the massive two joints on either side of you sacrum.  When these joints are not moving ... the surrounding msucles ligaments and tendons (the biggest ones in your body) get shorter and shorter.

That in turn leads to a twisting of the pelvis which then puts strain on the spine.

So either find a good old school chiro ... or at least a truly knoweldgeable PT ... especially one that knows how to deal with athletes.  

You want the kind of guys who can do the major stretching that athletes like football players get from their trainers.

But nothing beats an good Old School chiro ... one who also strips inflammation out of muscles with severe deep tissue work BEFORE moving any joints.

 

[bigtimeoxyhunter]

This book is a little different. I doesn't say the stuff about it being all psychological like many other best sellers. I started treatment with the authour and it's very intense. I'm getting relief (I think) after only 2 sessions.

Anyway, my mind is totally f'ucking blown. The doc used Ketameeen IV for anaesthesia. This was my first time with K and holy s'it is it crazy. I'm not going to go into it, but I've done alot of drugs and I've never experienced anything like that. 

Absolutely wild and life changing. 

 

[beta-boy]

Ketamine is one of the strongest drugs out there.  Be careful!

Not sure why a doc is using pain killers during treatment.  What is he doing specifically to treat you?

I'm not worried about the psychological issues of these books ... it's simply that they typically offer stretching exercises to help cure back pain problems.

Which is good.  Because stretching is 90% of the cure.  Sometimes you need to be stretched by someone professionally if you are too short in the muscles.  Like me.

However, the underlying issue was created somewhere in your body by a joint that is not moving.  Like the SI joint.

I am curious to hear what this doc tells you is your underlying problem.  Has he told you?  Have you asked?

I always ask a lot of questions.  Ask the doctor what the underlying issue is.  Ask why are you feeling this pain.  Ask him if he thinks you have an SI joint problem.

Very interested to hear what he thinks about your condition.  The docs that do not know what they are doing, but provide treatment, will utter a few things that don't add up, but talk a lot about how their treatment will work wonders.  Well ... they cannot fix you if they do not know what is wrong with you.

Ask for a detailed explanation of what he thinks is wrong with you ... what has caused your facet joints to be so out of alignment?

Very interested to hear what this doc says is your problem ... and what specifically he is doing to fix that problem.

 

[bigtimeoxyhunter]

I don't appreciate the tone that your replies have taken. This is not the elementary matter that your tone suggests. This is a highly skilled, private practice and is currently the only institute offering this type of treatment for pain. Way past SI, Facet, and disc problems.

The ketaeen while being a strong drug is very safe, does not cause respiratory stress as opds do, and in order to OD, a massive dose must be taken. It is closer to a holistic med than a chemical anaesthesia that would be needed to otherwise knock a person unconscious. With the right dose of K, you feel no pain in an otherwise very painful procedure, and you are in no danger of respiratory failure 

That fact that you suggest I discusses all pertinent issues with the doc and get to know exactly what he is doing suggests to me that you still have faith in tradition PM docs. I do not. After you've gone through your own list of potential diagnosis, and still find no relief, then maybe you'll get where I'm coming from. 

 

[bluesman008]

@ beta-boy:  While I have read & followed your journey and feel your enthusiasm, I would caution you to be careful.  In the past I have made the mistake of being POSITIVE, after I found something that works for me, that I was an expert for one, and that it was the answer for all, number two.  Frankly it was naive, a rookie mistake if you will.  

The all or nothing mindset of the members (not the books), to expand it out a little, is why 12 step programs are not perfect.  Churches neither.

@ bigtime:  I survive disability...Hell I even live well some days...on an eclectic mix of yoga, meds, a really good chiro/sports massage guy, (likebb mentions) and some serious introspection.  I will share later with you, if you like.  In answer to your questions;

I don't know.  Yet.  I don't have much faith in traditional medicine or their minions.  I do have faith in the cosmos, in honesty, in giving, in LOVE.  More later.

 

[D0SH4]

 Happy to see this thread. This is the beginning of my journey. I wish it was the beginning of my pain journey but it is not. I have to say I am very pleased to see input on this particular subject because I am almost positive the Neurologist will suggest the shots for me. I will know in a couple of weeks pending New MRI results. I will keep my eyes peeled here, you guys seem to have great ideas right along the lines of my thinking. I Yoga, eat well, combination with massages and I am considering a Chiro as well. Neurologist today actually says he encourages Chiro. I too am not a fan of the traditional treatments for pain either. At this point taking the meds I feel are needed but at the same time its driving me batty because I feel like I am poisoning my body. I have seen so many horror story about the shots not working and people having to get them over and over again. I am curious if it will work for me. The vicious circle... I am NOT AT ALL interested in that. So, that being said. I am very pleased that I can ask questions to people who have already had this experience.  

 

[bigtimeoxyhunter]

@D0SH4

I'm not at all familiar with your situation, but I've had all the injections and they all did absolutely FUCK ALL. (sorry, but it was necessary). Traditional pain management is stuck in a rut prescribing treatments for lower back pain that are not effective because they do not target the areas that the pain is coming from. I've seen 6 PM specialists ranging from orthopaedics, to osteopaths, to an anesthesiologist, and none helped me because they all wanted to block the pain and not treat it. The surgeon would not operate b/c I had nothing seriously wrong. At the time I was mad b/c I so wanted relief. I'd try anything. Now I know spinal surgery would have done no good.

I say this all based on experience, and logic, but not at all on expertise. You loose nothing by getting the injections, except alot of $$ in my case, and they are so non- invasive that really only they work or not, nothing to loose, just the success rate is very low. It must be a cash cow for the industry b/c I don't undsertand why they still do these injections en masse. Aside from the select few who really do have spine issues, nobody ever gets better from this treatment.

I'm working with a guy now that is treating the muscles. I am not cured, but his treatment program is aggressive, and does not rely on a simple shot to two to fix the problem. This guy may not be god's gift to doctors, but I think he has a very good hypothesis, and that is that you must treat the muscles. 

Hell, I used to be a yoga instructor, I'm veg, I used my bike to commute to and from work, and I ran marathons. Now I can barley walk. I'd been through PT twice before this, and that last thing I wanted a doc to tell me was to go take more PT. But know I know that I personally am never going to get better unless I fix the muscles, and this may be impossible, but anything involving trying to fix an unbroken spine is a waste of time. Chiro can help for lightweights, but once you get past a certain point, and I don't know if you're there yet, chiro just makes it worse because as it irritates the muscles.

If you do go through PT, get the expensive, quality treatments from the best therapists. If the therapist doesn't listen to you, or you hurt more after a week than you did before, get a new one. I had many crappy therapists and blamed PT itself, but really it was the individuals. PT and muscle treatments are my only hope. 

Anyway, good luck on your journey, and may it be as pain free as possible. 

Ox

 

[Fiend]

I can say that I have had trigger point injections and prolotherapy done. Expensive and they did nothing at all for me but drain my pocketbook.

 

[ean]

Bigtimeoxyhunter my back has been HORRIBLE for 5 years and I'm only 31. Injections never worked, ppsychical therapy never worked. My mom had surgery a few times and make it way worse /default_sad.png I am about to just accept the fact I'll always be in pain.

 

[bigtimeoxyhunter]

Bigtimeoxyhunter my back has been HORRIBLE for 5 years and I'm only 31. Injections never worked, ppsychical therapy never worked. My mom had surgery a few times and make it way worse /default_sad.png I am about to just accept the fact I'll always be in pain.

I hear you. It's a very depressing state to be in at a young age. That's where I'm at too. I know that I was desperate B4, and wanted the surgery, but now I know it wouldn't have worked since my spine is ok. It would have done nothing, and maybe made things worse.

One thing that has helped me lately is this machine I got from my doc. It's an electro-stim machine that can be used in a bunch of different ways. I have mine set up to stim the muscles so  they contract. I've been doing this a few times a day. It works to relieve the pain for a little while at least. Then you don't have to be in pain all day, and can maybe get some temporary relief.

If you have insurance, and a decent pain doctor, ask them about getting a EMPI Continuum. W/o insurance the little bastard is about 1300 bux though. 

There may be other such devices out there, but this one I have is very good. 

 

[ean]

Is it like a 10's unit? I will definitely ask at my next appointment! Thanks

 

[ean]

No tens doesn't really work for me, but that empi sounds really soothing. Hell I'd even pay the 1,300 if it would be worth it! Lol

 

[Chief2717]

I'm trying to get re-involved here and get my posts up a bit so just thought I would share my experience. I'm 24 and have a family with a history of scoliosis and other back issues. When I was 16 I herniated a disc racing slalom for my ski team in the L4-L5 area which began to press on a nerve. The nerve pain radiated through my left hand string, tightening it the point of walking with limp and dealing with near constant pain in my back, side, and through my leg. After a year of physical therapy, traction with a chiropractor a series of epidural cortisone injections directly into the spine and other treatments I was still in pain.

I elected to have surgery done by a well respected doctor from the spinal institute at Mt. Sinai medical center. I had a laminectomy and discectomy to remove part of the disc and open up space around the nerve. After consistent physical therapy I was virtually pain free. However recently an increasingly sedentary lifestyle has had my back acting up more than usual. Anything from the way I sit to making a sudden move can flare it up. Because spine is now essentially completely straight, no curve whatsoever, the discs deal with a lot of pressure being stacked the way they are. If i'm not constantly stretching and exercising I tend to get these flare ups. It's the worst because normal sitting will hurt. Only leaning forward (to touch my toes) opens up space in the discs and provides relief. 

I'm currently treating the spasms with flexeril and ibuprofen and managing for the time being. I have used opiate treatments in the past but the biggest drawback for me was my back felt fine so I would engage in behaviors (not sitting properly) that would only worsen my condition once they wore off. For me, the only treatment is proper exercise and stretching!  /default_smile.png

 

[underdog]

i have had them and for me it made it worse now they want to do surgery FML c spine i got a fed up neck from a MVA. /default_sad.png

My exact same problem, they didnt help one bit. They only made my pain worse.

 

[nickiean]

I have had severe DDD that first started for me at age 29. I have a good pain doc that is generous with pain meds. When I get the pain that runs down my left leg nothing helps me but the steroid inj.The last time I had the sciatic pain & had the inj. done he said the next time it happens they can go in the spine & burn the nerve endings. He did say that over time they do grow back. When it started I could barley get around the pain was so bad.&2 days after my inj. I was much better.

 

[ean]

Did you have the nerves burned nickiean?

 

[nickiean]

No I had 2 steroid injection that so far helped . He says when it comes back ( it always does ) he wants to try that . I hope the injections last awhile. I can't stand the sciatica nerve pain. It is the worse pain ever .

 

[US Army Veteran]

I know this is an old ass tread but injections really help me. How does it help everyone else?

 

[Chubette]

I had an ACDF (anterior cervical discectomy and fusion) about 1 1/2 years ago and have been having a lot of pain issues in my neck, shoulders and upper back. When I went to pain management they suggested steroid injections which I had already tried before having the surgery done.  It helped somewhat but the little bit that it helped didn't last long.  Also, I don't like the side effects of steroids but, we're all different and what works for some may not work for others.

 

[Handsley]

They helped me, too.  I have lumbar issues.  But the rub is they wear off.  I've spoken to one person who got about 8 months out of one, but most  I've talked to say weeks to a month or two and then the pain came back.  But weeks to a month may be all you need to get the inflammation down and some healing to occur.  It depends on your issue.  My last one lasted for about 2 months and that was just what I needed to get me to a place in time where I could have the surgery.   I don't have bad side effects from them, but do feel more angry and irritated in the week after.

I think the last injection worked so well for me because I was consulting with a surgeon at the same time.  He ordered an updated MRI, looked at it and called the pain management doc and told him exactly where to put that injection.  I would recommend finding a doc that does them under fluoroscopy and gives twilight sedation.  I have heard they are quite painful without sedation.  If they give them under fluoroscopy, they can get the positioning correct.