PAIN RELEIF

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Greg2121 said:
This is some fairly hard earned information that some people should find informative.  I had an Oxycontin habit, back before the WHOLE WORLD discovered MY SOC :-(, and finally figured I needed to straighten my life out.  I actually cold turkeyed off a VERY high daily mg amount, but wasn't educated enough about PAWS to wait it out.  So I ended up in a Methadone Clinic, until they drove me crazy with all their rules, regulations, etc...  Big brother protecting us.  So I "fired" them one day, and started tapering down rapidly because a transfer from Methadone to Suboxone from more than 60mg/day of Methadone is not recommended.  My psychiatrist thought I should do it, but I figured why not taper and be more comfortable with it.  30mg is the target, but I jumped at 39mg/day of Methadone.

Bupe, Suboxone (8/2, 2/0.5) Bupe/Naloxone in the US, or Subutex (Only Buprenorphine in the US) is weird stuff.  I started on it to get out of Methadone Clinic Prison (Daily Visits...).  I tapered down to 39mg/Methadone/day and was still worried, about waiting long enough.  With long acting opioids especially, if you're not in at least moderate withdrawal, Bupe's affinity for Opiate receptors is nearly unmatchable, and will kick the full agonist off, and I have heard precipitated withdrawal horror stories.  I went to my Dr. after over 48 hours off Methadone, and told him that I didn't feel great, but not that bad either.  He said, "No offense, but I've seen you looking WAY worse. LOL"  So I inducted myself at home (it was a Fri. evening) on Sat., or whenever I felt more in withdrawal, with directions to page him if I had problem.  No problems really (see below).   The Naloxone antagonist is supposedly in their to prevent injection abuse, because even sublingually it's not well bioavailable.  But given that Naloxone has a miniscule half life compared to Bupe, AND Bupe might bind even better to Opiate receptors than the Naloxone, I've heard that it is mostly marketing.  I had no thoughts of injecting so it was/is irrelevant to me.

When transferring from a long acting strong opiate agonist like Methadone, no amount of Bupe is going to be able to fully replace the full agonist.  I felt a little uncomfortable for a few days, than a little "down" for a couple weeks, then was pretty much OK, and FREE.  30 day prescription with refills.  For a long term Opiate lover/addict/abuser Bupe is pretty much not abusable, plus if you really want to clean yourself up, Bupe blocks pure agonists GREAT.  I stay on 1mg of Suboxone now, ONLY because I know what will happen if I wean off.  I'll start "cheating", with probably not a great long term outcome. LOL  Even 1mg of Bupe can almost completely block 120mg of Oxycodone for me.  I'll just get in a "good mood".

But BEWARE!  There is saying that "less is more" with Suboxone.  At low dosages it is a very powerful narcotic with agonist properties, but not as nearly as euphoric as the infamous narcotics.  I've seen 2mg of Suboxone put an opiate naïve individual into cold sweats and dry heaves all night.  Yet I quickly started being maintained on 24mg/day!  I truly did forget I took a dose one morning, and took it again a couple hours later.  48mg!  I felt NOTHING.  Buprenorphine has a "ceiling effect" due to it's agonist/antagonist nature, that they say maxes out at 24mg, but I have a feeling it's a lot lower.  IT'S EXPENSIVE TOO.  IMHO peope with "minor" Hydrocodone/Vicodan habits are maintained on way too high an initial dose of Suboxone, and Sub, is NOT easy to come off of.  I got on that dose chasing what was not obtainable -- to feel as "normal" as I did on the Methadone.  You won't.  In a couple of weeks, the sub-normal will feel normal again.  16mg or less would have been PLENTY.

When I saw the "less is more" light, meaning the degree of it, I tapered and got down to 1mg in an amazingly short amount of time, but took just long enough so I didn't feel a thing.  I have been assured, by friends, and reading on the web, that 0.5mg down to zero is the hard part.  How weird is that?  People jumping at 0.125mg (don't forget we're talking long term use now), are still in for a lot of hurt.  I saw a post, where the person started skipping days at 0.25mg, then moved to 0.125mg 7 days/week, then started skipping days, and eventually he jumped with minimal discomfort.  LOL This is FUNNY, but NOT REALLY: In the US, the smallest dose they are making at the moment I believe is still 2mg film strips (vs. the pills).  The manufacturer warns that, "The distribution of active ingredient in the film may not be uniform, therefore the film should not be divided.  This is utter BS.  It would be HARD to make the film in such a way that the ingredients weren't uniformly distributed, PLUS quitting Suboxone after long term maintenance at 2mg/day is probably doomed to failure.  Considering that it is rather pricey, and the manufacturer still has a patent, a cynic might think they don't want people to quit!

Suboxone can be a God send to people wanting off narcotics.  My advice is to be aware of the ceiling effect, and that it's expensive, and that less than they probably want to maintain you on will probably work just fine.  16mg is called a "target" a lot.  That's a lot.  24mg was just flushing money down the toilet.  And if/when you finally want to come of Bupe/Suboxone/Subutex, expect to taper to what you used to think were miniscule dosages pretty easily.  Then at around 1mg start to expect some discomfort, and take your time, there isn't a race.  Once you know what to expect, it makes things (like discomfort) more bearable, than if it springs on you by surprise.  Going from  24mg down to 0.25mg, breathing a big sigh of relief and stopping, will definitely give you a surprise. LOL  Hard to believe but true. 

I hope someone finds some of this of value.  I wish I'd read it about 5 years ago. :-)
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Some real good info there Greg, good to meet you :-)

~P~

 
i am new to this site but everyone i know that has had an opioid addiction and tried to taper off have had little to no success . some one once told me that even if you avoid strong physical withdrawal you have depression to contend with .

 
welcome,  /default_smile.png there are many of us pain sufferers that dr.'s won't help enough, you're not alone.

 
I am new to the site and I have pain issues in my neck and lower back and I am looking for a new place my old place is no more and if someone does not care would like new sites pm to me plz

 
snoopy3527 said:
I am new to the site and I have pain issues in my neck and lower back and I am looking for a new place my old place is no more and if someone does not care would like new sites pm to me plz
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A quick word of advice. Don't ever accept a site or vendor email via PM. That's a sure fire way to get scammed. Stay with vendors who are DBG approved and read, read, read the threads pertaining to those vendors. Give significantly more weight to the more recent reviews. There is a lot of good info on this board. I'm certain you'll find what you are looking for. Just be sure to read up before asking too many questions and be sure to read and abide by the board rules. Welcome! :)

 
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  2. Realbenzeyes @ Realbenzeyes: I just wish the opioid epidemic never happened. Fk the turn of the century (which would be cool no doubt)! Many of my friends and family would’ve ended up in asylums like so many others. I just wish I could get back all those I’ve lost since the start
  3. L @ Layne_Cobain: 1914 I meant
  4. L @ Layne_Cobain: I often wish I lived during the turn of the century or at least before the Harrison narcotics act or whatever I think it was 1924 the fun ended but anyway yeh being able to get laudanum, ❄️ and amphetamine at the local friendly pharmacy
  5. Maelstrom @ Maelstrom: Chew on the leaves with a bit of slaked lime and enjoy the mild boost you get from the raw base.
  6. Maelstrom @ Maelstrom: I’m sure you know the folks in the mountainous regions along South Americas pacific side buy cócà leaves at the local farmers market just to help acclimate to the higher elevation when they have to head up into the hills.
  7. Maelstrom @ Maelstrom: I would certainly have bought it, swilled it, enjoyed it…. Why not? A little boost in your juice isn’t going to hurt anyone.
  8. R @ Royboy99: Exports were reported to have around 7.2mg per FL OZ, it’s success is what actually led to Coca Cola
  9. Maelstrom @ Maelstrom: Having cramps and husband thinks you’re acting hysterical (ie. PMS) the doc would either perform a certain massage to relieve the strains of motherhood and family life of that time or send you down to the local apothecary for a bottle of laudanum… A tincture of alcohol and 10% òpìųm. Fun days huh?
  10. R @ Royboy99: @malestrom: yeah thats it, my bad Mariani, yeah i considered that and also its ROA, which was oral so the bioavailability was lower than insufflation, higher degree of purity tho and longer duration … there was a significant marked increase of patents filed by Edison during the time it was released in the US. Presidents were known to use it as well, and the Queen. The pope awarded the wine the Vatican gold medal award
  11. Maelstrom @ Maelstrom: I think it was called vin Mariani. But yeah, it was all the rave back in the turn to the 20th century. Original formula Coca Cola did it for a while too. I think it was pretty weak though. Something like 200 mg per liter of wine. Enough to maybe give you a little push but unless you could pound some serious alcohol, it’d be hard to really feel the effects before the ethyl knocked you down on the ground. It was an interesting time period. Laudanum was a “hysterical” woman’s best friend.
  12. R @ Royboy99: Maybe it’s the admixture of my South American dna that works so well with it ? 🤷
  13. R @ Royboy99: It’s all evident in memory recall, my emails, meetings, … people invest everything they have in a nootropic that provides this… desperately searching without success and it’s right there right under their nose (no pun) … stigmatized by society and outlawed.
  14. R @ Royboy99: Now I’m not foolish or delusional to think that it made Edison who he was … it just allowed him to Edison to Edison to a greater degree … and I see it doing that for me and others who use it as a productive tool and not a substance of abuse.. you can look at this data with the level of patents filed by Edison during that time … comparable to Barry bonds or McGuire breaking records while they were subtly enhanced
  15. R @ Royboy99: One could argue that we would not have motion pictures if it wasn’t for ❄️
  16. R @ Royboy99: I also take month long breaks and replace with Ritalin for receptor recovery
  17. R @ Royboy99: And while it may sound insane and completely destructive … small microdoses of ❄️ has really transformed me. I did extensive research on its use by Edison, the pope at the time, and many others who got great benefit from a wine concoction called vin Mariani … this subtle enhancement changed the world and as long its used with a high degree of control, it’s amazing. you may think I’m crazy … but I’m just being as transparent as I can
  18. R @ Royboy99: I’ve grown to realize that my time is finite and Im only getting older… I’m back to relying on small PRN doses of FDA trialed BZDs and it’s made tremendous improvements to my quality of life. I just need to get out there more and meet someone new, it’s the only piece that’s missing since I’ve managed to get it together
  19. R @ Royboy99: @LatsDoodis: thanks brother … I’ve spent months trying to put myself in uncomfortable places to grow stronger. Hours of research, thousands on supplements, therapy etc …
  20. LatsDoodis @ LatsDoodis: @Royboy99 You’re not yet lost. Cut them losses and do what you don’t want to do. Take the boring, shameful, nerve racking way out. It’s the only road back to balance. When you’re ready, you’ll do it. Hit me up if you want support quitting. This ain’t worth your life!
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