Suboxone Or Opiate W/d

[Gator]

The best cure for opiate withdraw IMHO is medical marijuana. I often force myself to quit opiates just to get my tolerance down and using mmj makes it a fairly painless process every time. I wake up and eat a cannabis infused cereal bar for breakfast along with a couple bowls of bud. The cereal bar puts me at ease for the entire day and I smoke here and there whenever I get the craving.

 

[High Tide]

I am not a doctor, chemist or pharmaceutical employee so the following is just my opinion:

IMHO ALKS5461 could revolutionize the recovery industry.  It combines bupe and an additional molecule that prevents bupe from binding to the brain's receptors.   this could deal with the biggest drawback of bupe treatment - how to get off the stuff.   

Keep in mind that bupe only blocks other opiates and sends a mild signal of its own to minimize cravings and eliminate withdrawal putting the patient in remission.  This new drug has properties of its own that are expected to deal with certain forms of depression, anxiety/panic and chronic-pain.  In combination with the appropriate therapy (PT, psych, etc) patients could become drug-free.

The biggest glitch with bupe is how to get off the stuff.  There are volumes written on how to induce, start, initiate bupe treatment, but not one official authoritative protocol (that I can find) for getting off the stuff.  ALKS5461 prevents bupe from binding to the mu receptors in the first place making the mild euphoria and later psychological dependence unlikely.   Of course none of this will work without ultimately treating the underlying root causes of the problem (GAD, MDD, spinal injuries, etc.), but this med is supposedly a treatment that won't cause its own dependence and have true antidepressant properties.

This is all kinda speculative at this point because the drug is still in clinical trials, but they look promising.

I personally am not a fan of Vivitrol because of those I know who reacted badly to it, but this is just MHO.   Vivitrol is simply a long-acting (monthly) injectible form of Naltrexone, a full opiate ANtagonist which physically prevents patients from relapsing.    Naltrexone is one of the options used when a patient is brought to the ER overdosing on opiates.

Very interesting developments, however!

A friend was going to a 'done clinic that took her from "getting by" with 30 mg of more~feen, and being really good on 100 to taking 240 mg of 'done in just a few months. She had to quit the clinic due to a court order, and had to come back to me for help with WD. She had tried going straight from 'done to subs and she couldn't do it but it seemed that with the feen easing her down she made the transition a lot better. Of course this is just one persons reaction and others may feel differently. I was surprised I could help her at all given the fact that orally the feen only has a BA of around 30% to 40%, and the amount I could offer was only half what she was getting in 'done, which has a much greater BA from what I gather. She wasn't really "happy", but she was able to avoid the 'done WD to a great extent.

I also know my nephew was using eye V, most likely oh seas or oh sea eye are, and he successfully used subs to clean up. He told me it that it enhanced  mj incredibly, so mixing the two he was able to taper off the subs pretty quick. IDK how, but he was able to disguise his mj use with plenty of liquids, and they never complained about the color. 

But using subs to get off harder stuff seems to work best in a rapid taper as opposed to using them for a long time and very slowly tapering. That's just my opinion based on what I've seen in other people, I can't say personally as I've never used them myself. 

 

[Packrat]

@High Tide,

Interesting what happened with your friend and I hope she is doing well.

It is fairly common knowledge that inducing to Sub from high dose long-acting agonists like OC/OP or Mdone require extended time in withdrawal to prevent precipitated withdrawal as well as significant reduction in dosage to successfully induce without continued withdrawal even at Sub;s ceiling dose.   

It is also common knowledge that by adding a step in between mdone treatment and sub induction can pay off big time.   By first transitioning from a long-acting opiate agonist such as mdone to a short-acting one such as IR oxee, or more pheen, regardless of  bioavailability in a controlled environment will absolutely improve the success probability of induction and quick stability on Sub.

There are documented protocols for such a transition but it is not legal for a physician to prescribe such a protocol strictly for medication-assisted opiate addiction treatment so you would need to do a bit of research and make sure you are confident in the credibility of the protocol.

I hope this is helpful in some way.  If not, feel free to PM me as I may be able to offer more information not suitable for posting.

 

[Rec]

I have started coming off my sub programming problem i suffer sev anxiety but docs know but won't give me anything Benz o to help i in UK does anyone know if i could go private and how much would it cost also if i pay will they give me what i know i require i sick of being treated like a #### when i know what works for me ..... Whatever the consequences it's my #####££life and I sick of living this way . 

 

[blissopifree 2]

I failed when i tried to come off subz basically I'm back on the done!.

It seems like someone said previously the sub is easy to get on but not so easy to get off!!!

Peace 

Bliss....

 

[Jam1976]

 I have been on one program or another for two decades now… A ridiculous amount of time to most people.  I was on methadone for 17.5 years then switched to Suboxone 2 1/2 years ago.  Due to a severe  anxiety/panic attack disorder I have been on benzos for most of that time period as well.  Doctors frown on combining these two medications but make exceptions in certain circumstances.  Anyway, I recently switched doctors. I went from a doctor that blatantly over prescribed to a very strict doctor, it's been a difficult transition.  I've gone from  being prescribed a very high dose of Suboxone, 24 mg, and I was  immediately cut down to  being prescribed between 6-8mg per day. I never took the entire 24 mg my old doctor prescribed, so I was able to save some of my medication in case of an emergency. * which is good considering he was shut down by the DEA and I was left without a doctor for weeks.  I'd say the most I ever took was 16 mg and my average was probably 12 mg.  My new doctor just cut my dose again and I'm down to between 4 to 6 mg… I'm not feeling withdrawls that badly, but I am worried about how I'm going to feel when I get to a lower dose.  I'm also concerned about how I will react once I am free from this medication, there's no question that opioids have been a crutch for me for a very long time.  My current doctor has detoxed my Klonopin a rapid level.  I've had a harder time dealing with that by far than I have the Suboxone taper.  Within two months I went from taking 3 mg of roaches to .5 per day.  I believe he is going to leave me at the .5 for a few months and then cut me off completely.  Unfortunately I live in a very rural area and this is the only other private doctor that prescribes subs. I see him or go back to the clinic atmosphere. I considered it, but none of them take my insurance and I would have to pay around $20 per day and drive around three hours per day.... regardless of the fact that I have 17 years of clean UAs.   No thank you! My question is this, does the amount of time that I have been on this program contribute to how  difficult it will be for me at the end when I'm tapering off the last 1 to 2 mg of Suboxone?  Or is it all psychological?  Honestly, I just want to be free at this drug  and all the hassles that go along with it.  I think it's possible my doctor would listen to me if I asked him to slow down on my sub taper, but part of me thinks I should just bite the bullet and get through it?  I have a very hectic life with a  severely disabled teenager, a young daughter and a job where I work a lot of hours weekly. I need to be able to function, that is been my biggest problem with withdrawals in the past.  I am supplementing my current Roche dose, I can't imagine how I would be handling anything if I were taking .5 per day.  I take about extra milligram or a tad more per day and I'm trying to lower it on a weekly basis. I know I only have a few months before he cuts my Benzos completely, I am more scared of that than anything.  Again, a lot of this is psychological dependence.  I have a new  addiction specialist counselor, that is helping.  I'm not going to lie, I am definitely scared of what I am going to experience over the next 3 to 4 months. I believe that this doctor plan is to detox me completely as quickly as possible from everything.  That is my end goal (at least concerning the subs), I just don't want to be so rushed that I have a hard time functioning in my day-to-day life. Is the  information about the last 1 to 2 mg of Suboxone being pure hell to withdraw from truth or myth?  Thank you!  I know that was a lengthy post, believe it or not I tried to condense the situation as much as possible. 

PS- A sidenote, I exercise on a regular basis, I eat very healthy and overall I am in good physical shape. I'm hoping that that helps. 

 

[Handsley]

I thought 2 mgs was fine for subs.  I felt good.  Taking 1 mg and down to a 1/2 was where it got hard and I fell off of the program.  After that, I got back on opiates for a short time, and the next time I quit, it was withdrawal cold turkey.  In some ways, I thought the cold turkey was easier than the slow taper.  I took off work for awhile.  I spent a night in the hospital.  Of course, if you have to work and can't take any time off, then you have to taper.  There won't be a choice for you.  The psychological stuff wears off after about 4 months, at least for me.  Your brain has to start up the natural opiates it produces and it takes time.  Just knowing that my brain had to restart itself helped me somehow.  No, I don't think it's psychological.  I think it's a physical issue that your brain craves it because it hasn't had to work at making those chemicals for a while.   Exercise does help get it restarted, though, so you've got that going for you.

I have no experience with methadone.   There is no easy way out unfortunately.  You have to accept that you will have withdrawal symptoms no matter what.  It's just to what degree and can you manage it and still manage your life.  It's not impossible, though.  Many people have done it and you can as well.  It seems like you're taking all of the right steps to do it.  Everyone withdraws differently as well so you won't really know until you get there.   Wishing you the best

 

[Jam1976]

For me, physical activity and healthy eating have helped me immensely. Meditation too. I have pretty severe anxiety.., and I have noticed on the days that I rollerskate or do yoga at my need for my K roaches decreases a bit.  I just have an over all of our sense of well-being after skating or yoga that I don't feel otherwise. Sugar makes me feel like crap.. I'm very cautious with my carb intake in general. Lots of raw veggies...some fruits, lots of water, home made Kombucha, MCT oil.  I have learned over the years that what I eat has a huge impact on how I feel physically and mentally.  Nothing completely takes away my anxiety or panic attack issues, but eating and exercise have definitely made a huge impact. That being said, I'm still hooked on the anti anxiety meds.  I am scared to death of when my doctor finally cuts me off, I might have five months left at most. I'm not AS concerned for now with the sub taper because I'm not feeling it physically all that much yet. I  Think that I am just nervous, 20 years of opioid maintenance treatment is difficult to imagine coming off of… I want it very badly but I am nervous at the same time.  I think that my brain is in for a lot of changes, a lot of them will be positive but I also know that my brain will need to learn how to create dopamine without medical assistance.  I have also noticed that subs seem to keep my cravings for anti-anxiety meds in check as well, so I am worried that once I get off the sub that my Benzo cravings might get out of hand. I definitely will have to watch myself. I used to take a crazy amount of Benzos...that was quite awhile ago.  But I definitely noticed a difference in this department when I got onto Suboxone. It became much easier. I'm already hooked on my Klonopin...I will have to force myself to detox once he cuts me off. I've been taking the least amount of Suboxone as possible. I think deep down I'd almost rather detox off at a rapid pace than give up my anxiety meds. That's a pretty big sigh regarding my Benzo dependance. Sub rapid detox: Easier said than done I'm sure. I've heard Kratom can help with the end with a sub detox...I'd think there are other meds that might help as well. 

I'be had methadone out of my life for almost going on 3 years now. I'd never go back to that medication! 

Thabks for your input and support! J

 

[Dumbass#1]

Anybody who is serious about ceasing opiates needs to work a 12 step program. I've been on and off for years. The  times when I've been off - the ONLY way I've been able to stay clean is by going to NA. If you've been on opiates for years you just might as well accept the fact you're an addict. I dont want to sound like a hypocrite because it's been on and off for me but again - the times I have decided I need to be off there's just no way to do it on your own. I've had a lot of bad luck with accidents, multiple surgeries, etc.  But my off times I've had to have the help of the program - working with a sponsor.  

 

[blissopifree 2]

When I transferred from m/done to subz I wasn't too bad,but after 2 yrs of subz when I tried to jump off them l felt terrible I was depressed didn't want to talk to anyone and my head was so far up my ass?!

Peace 

Bliss.....

 

[Requiem]

When I transferred from m/done to subz I wasn't too bad,but after 2 yrs of subz when I tried to jump off them l felt terrible I was depressed didn't want to talk to anyone and my head was so far up my ass?!

Peace 

Bliss.....

Same. It was 6 months of pure exhaustion for me until I couldn't take it anymore.

 

[Jam1976]

Same. It was 6 months of pure exhaustion for me until I couldn't take it anymore.

I'm coming off of Suboxone now. I started on H 20 years ago, got myself off the H and onto a methadone maintenance program.... I was on that program for a very very long time and then was told to go onto Suboxone because it would be easier to detox from.  When I went on to methadone I was not ready to get  completely honest and/or get completely sober, but methadone at least got me off of the streets and started me in a direction of having a MUCH more normal life.  Switching over to Suboxone was a mistake, I see that now. The sub doctor I was referred to was a chronic over prescriber at the time. I was put on way too high of a dose and didn't know any better.  He started me at 24 mg of Suboxone!  I had cut myself down to 30 mg of methadone  before transitioning to Suboxone.  Now I have a doc who is serious about detoxing me off of Suboxone, it's been a little bit of a shock to my system because for two years I was given so much Suboxone that I didn't take a consistent dose on a daily basis.  I am now down to being prescribed 8 mg, but I am taking about 6 mg. I go back-and-forth, sometimes (1/3-1/2 of the time) I only take 4 mg.  Yesterday I took 4 mgs, I feel fine today and I've only had 2 mgs so far.  I'm not sleeping great, but I can live through that. I'm going to try to stay at this 4mg dose.  I've done 12 step off and on for 20 years, unfortunately right now I live in a very very small town with one meeting once a week in the evening when I'm supposed to be taking care of my disabled son. I still go at times, but there are only eight people in the meeting and the meeting is very odd ( super religious, everyone there preaches about Jesus and that being the only true higher power) and I don't find it to be helpful  most of the time. I try to take the good and leave that bad… But sometimes the meetings are so weird that they are hard to sit through.  I loved my 12 step home group when I lived in the city.  I was the secretary for the meeting for two years and felt the best that I ever did in terms of my addiction.  I never talked  openly in the meetings about being on methadone, but most of the people in my meeting were non-judgemental anyway… I probably could have. So I got myself an addiction counselor  here recently , that has helped.  The main side effect I have noticed  sense tapering off of Suboxone is an increase in my anxiety, and I already have an anxiety disorder. So while I've been rather successful in decreasing my Suboxone dose, I have not been successful in decreasing my benzodiazepine use.  Just the opposite in fact.  It is definitely a battle. But it's a battle that I am determined to win. I have been on one form of opioid or another for so long that it is insane.  I try to imagine life free of any prescribed medication, it's hard to even wrap my brain around it because I  have been on these  medications for so long.  I keep hearing about how the last 2 mg are the hardest when it comes to detoxing from Suboxone, I'm sure if I had gotten off sooner it would have been a far easier.  I think one of my biggest worries is that I've been on these medications for so long that once I am off all of my old cravings will come back again… I have never had any craving to do H again, at least not for a good 15 to 17 years.  But I worry that I am already having a hard time controlling my urge for anxiety medications and that it will get out of control and once I'm off of the Suboxone. Other than being on these medications I live a very healthy lifestyle.  I work out at least four days a week, I eat a very strict healthy diet… I meditate, do yoga. I try to do activities that help with my anxiety.  They do help, but I am definitely an addict and benzos have definitely become my problem drug.  I have no idea what to expect once I hit the 2 mg Suboxone dose and once I start lowering from there… I guess time will tell.  I will be in the city for a month over the summer and plan on attending a lot of meetings with some of my sober friends while I am there. 

 If anyone has any advice in terms of getting off these last 2/4/6 mg of Suboxone, I would greatly appreciate it.  I know my doctor will help me, but I also know it's going to take a lot of inner strength and me reaching out for as much help as I can get. 

 I do see a light at the end of the tunnel… A final freedom from the handcuffs of being on these medications. And in terms of the benzo use, I'm taking this one step at a time. I will get off of the Suboxone and then I will start addressing my issue with my anxiety medication addiction. While I have a valid anxiety/panic attack disorder, I know that I exaggerated it in my mind as an excuse to take as much as possible. I will get off of the Suboxone and then I will start addressing my issue with my anxiety medication addiction. While I have a valid anxiety/panic attack disorder, I know that I  have a serious problem with this form of medication.   Addiction is not a joke.  When it comes to getting truly clean, the more eggs you having in your recovery basket the better your odds of success.   I am just going to keep the faith that I can make it and get as much help as I possibly can. Thank you for the topic! 

 

[Requiem]

SL do 0.2 buprenorphine and that's perfect for tapering. I've started 3mg a day for my 12 year rx addiction. I'm only taking 10-14 days worth of subs to get me past withdrawals. Have u tried Paxil? Or paroxitine as we call it here in uk? Very good for anxiety and easy to get off in my opinion only. Sounds like u r working hard on recovery. Well done. Don't be too hard on yourself. I'm desperate to be without opiates as I'd like another child and I'd like to be normal again. One step at a time but don't forget subs stay in your system for 3-4 days so when u alternate between high n low dose it will catch up with u eventually. Go slow. Reduce by 25% a week I would say. 

 

[Requiem]

Also, re cravings, after being on subs for a while, u genuinely stop craving your doc when you come off it. It really does re-wire your brain. I was on subutex 9 months and at the end and after coming off I didn't crave my doc for the first time n my life. If u get withdrawals or paws or rls... that will make u want to take a small amount of your doc to cure it but u won't want to take it to get high or have fun with it. I started by taking 8mg of codeine for rls at night which worked! But then over a course of a year 1x8mg codeine crept upwards. 

 

[Kalsima]

I crave all the time but I had a short time being a h addict. About 5 years I had horrible veins to start but when treated for multiple misses with thrombosis and cellulitis then endocarditis changed my life. Many know I have a pigs valve because of the damage it did to my heart and lining. They slowly detoxed me while I was in the hospital for my almost 2 month stay then took me to a hospital where I was given naltrexone and I felt like I was going to freaking die. I said F this got on methadone and did a great job working and raising my child until I had my son taken from my ex because I was abusing Xanax and methadone. I didn't care about the 11 deaths in one year at East Indiana Methadone Clinic. All those private clinics care about is getting you as high as possible. It broke my heart seeing single mothers in there not eating prostituting themselves to pay $14.00 a day to get dosed. I only got from 200 mgs of methadone to 60 mgs when I did three to four day wait because I was on so much. The police were called twice to my house I must not like withdrawing too much. It took me a month to feel normal and I hated that subs and Xanax for me do not have that synerthestic effect that methadone and Xanax had. It's taken me 11 years to get off it but I need to go to must admit because when I have a headache it's like my husband are playing with fire we are planning the next relapse. I still see my doctor and we both get three strips a day!! Why to help people who are sick. We don't sellliterally the boxes we have but will help our insurance covers 3 a day which I hear is hard but my doctor personally called. I use others pee god I should be at the must admit because I'm having surgery Friday had gas pains and a headache from hell and I took way more than I needed for pain. I struggle with addiction every day but I work my ass off to fight the urges. AA I know has helped others all it's ever done for me is meet great connections as soon as they relapse so I avoid and have my own spiritual method. I'm up at 7:00 every morning to watch the sunrise and pray to my God because I'm sure it's a hell of a lot different than many and I pray for this entire board and the friends I made. Our best way was cutting off little 2mg and 1 mg pieces you couldn't see and only taking when needed eventually a day would pass then two etc but I must admit four months I'm still shaky. Good luck to all I have a ton on respect for anyone coming off any narcotic. It doesn't matter what kind. Pain is pain and I never say oh it's just vikes I was on methadone because we all feel pain the same. So I have respect for all opiate addicts or what you use if you're trying to clean up. But be prepared for many setbacks but as @PTFC said tomorrow's a new day! Get back on that wagon and I do! Good luck to all and I respect you all no matter what your drug of choice is!

 

[blissopifree 2]

Same. It was 6 months of pure exhaustion for me until I couldn't take it anymore.

@RequiemYou sound just like I felt AWFUL and for the first time I felt REALLY depressed.I just didn't want to talk to anyone and to be left alone.

Peace 

Bliss....

 

[Requiem]

@RequiemYou sound just like I felt AWFUL and for the first time I felt REALLY depressed.I just didn't want to talk to anyone and to be left alone.

Peace 

Bliss....

The stuff is so strong and although it stops cravings, it really does fatigue you in a way you can't imagine unless you've been there already. 

 

[Jam1976]

 That is exactly what I am fearing right now, as I get lower and lower I am concerned about how it's going to impact my ability to work, work out, take care of my kids, etc. once I get down to a an end low-dose and I'm off completely. .  I am working really hard to get myself down to a stable 4 mgs...that hasn't been so bad.  But getting off at the end and then how I feel afterwards, that's a huge unknown to me and I am definitely nervous about it.  My brain is going to have to learn how to create dopamine on it's own again, I know that working out helps with that. But if you're exhausted and depressed, your desire to work out probably plummets completely.  I looked at a calendar and it hasn't been 2 1/2 years on Suboxone, it's been more like three for me.  And many many years on methadone prior to that.   I've had a couple of people tell me that I've been on these medications for so long that getting off is unrealistic. But honestly, the side effects from this medication get worse and worse as time goes on.   I really want off. Do people ever stop and medicate their withdrawal symptoms using Oxy for a week or so?  That's how my old (VERY liberal in terms of prescribing medications) doctor transitioned me from methadone to Suboxone, so I was wondering if the same thing would work in terms of the symptoms after detoxing off of subs. The doctor that I have now is much more restrictive and uptight compared to my old doctor. But honestly, with how much my old doctor over prescribed it made it very difficult to get off of the medication. 

 

[Gemini72]

The way the Dr described it to me,(I don't trust Dr's), but anyway he did show me research and was in on the know, a sub specialist if you will.. Heroin and methadone go in and block all your receptors so when you stop your brain has forgotten how to make those chemicals because it hasn't had to. Well subs come in and just block half your receptors so your brain continues to make the chemicals.. I know subs don't give you the euphoria that other opiates do so I kinda figured everyone makes a big deal about the kick because they don't want to get on subs and not be on their opiate haze all day.. Don't get me wrong, I've been on subs for four years and I'm terrified too but I do have some hope, my Dr is a stand up guy and I mostly trust him. I just think people don't want to stop what they are doing so they make it sound like it's the worst kick ever so it gives them an excuse to keep doing what they are doing. Had a lot of gnarly kicks I know the fear ALL TOO WELL. But I'm just a girl with and little opinion. What i do know my life has been 10 fold better since I stopped heroin and methadone, I'm emotionally available for my kids and the people I love, I don't sleep all day(which sometimes I miss) and I respect myself a Hell of a lot more. I'll be sending you good thoughts and easy kick wishes, maybe then you tell me what to expect. Gem

 

[Requiem]

Same. It was 6 months of pure exhaustion for me until I couldn't take it anymore.

Same